Public Accounts Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Do you agree with the strategy?

[Bill Matthews]

Do I agree with the strategy as a goal for increasing participation in government business by indigenous firms and individuals? Yes, I agree with the strategy.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

If you agree with it, then how could you not understand the policy goals?

[Bill Matthews]

I'm struggling, Mr. Chair, to figure out the relevance here. We know Mr. Yeo—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

There's immense relevance. I can describe it for you. The relevance is the fact that your ministry had awareness of Mr. David Yeo. Mr. David Yeo has been working within your ministry for some time and even applied to your ministry, and you hired him. This person largely applied through a particular access point for which your ministry is also responsible for ensuring compliance. The compliance order for that program requires 33%. I'll just cite it for you:

“Businesses that are at least 51% owned and controlled by Indigenous peoples (First Nations, Inuit or Métis and ordinarily resident in Canada) are eligible for PSIB" funding.”

That's procurement strategy for indigenous businesses funding.

“Joint ventures between an eligible Indigenous business partner and non-Indigenous business are permissible, as long as 'it can be demonstrated that 33% of the value of the work is performed by the Indigenous business.'”

Are you aware of that?

[Bill Matthews]

I am, and I'm also aware that a business directory is maintained, and that Mr. Yeo was on that through Dalian—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

He also subcontracts. Do you understand that?

[Bill Matthews]

I understand that he also subcontracts.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

You know that this policy applies to subcontractors. Did you verify the indigeneity of those subcontractors?

[Bill Matthews]

I did not, personally.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Did anyone in your ministry verify that?

[Bill Matthews]

I'm going to turn to Mr. Crosby, who is our ADM materiel, to—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Are you aware of that, though?

[Bill Matthews]

Am I aware of any work done...?

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Are you aware of that requirement?

[Bill Matthews]

I'm aware of the requirement, and I know we've—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Why wouldn't you avail yourself of information like this today when you knew that we were going to ask about this?

[Bill Matthews]

Mr. Chair, I was not certain what the committee would ask, so I prepared myself the best I could, and if I've—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Could you supply any information that your ministry has in relation to any review or audit on whether or not Mr. Yeo or any other indigenous contractors that you've been able to get through PSIB—and their subcontractors—actually have been in compliance with this policy? Will you provide that, please?

[Bill Matthews]

Mr. Chair, I will, but my current understanding is that the Department of National Defence does not audit compliance against that policy. I will check to see if there has been auditing done, but I am not aware of any.

Troy may—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

You can see the immense risk, right?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Hold on, Mr. Desjarlais. You're over your time, and I have been generous.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I do want to get to an answer. I think you're on to something here, but I do need to watch the clock as well.

Mr. Crosby, do you have an answer that might provide some light?

Then we're going to move on, but Mr. Desjarlais will have another round if all goes well.

[Troy Crosby]

Mr. Chair, I can provide some information.

There are 24 contracts with Dalian that we have reviewed or started to review, and so far we've been through 14 of them. One of them was awarded to Dalian on the basis of their registry. That was in the early 2022 time frame. When Dalian had been applying for contracts, their résumé, their proposals, always highlighted their indigenous business status, but it did not factor into the selection of the companies, except in the one case. That's of 14 of the 24 that we've looked at so far.