Public Accounts Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You'll provide it. That's great.

I have one minute.

As I said, Mr. Matthews, the appearance of a conflict of interest is the situation we find ourselves in. This is why the committee voted to ban double-dipping. It creates this situation in this case of an individual with offshore bank accounts, making millions of dollars in a way that I think, quite frankly, the general public finds objectionable—taking 25% or 30% on commissions, particular indigenous set-asides where the work is not being done by indigenous subcontractors, by the admission of Mr. Yeo, and then taking this job and working inside the very organization that he's trying to win business from.

With that in mind, do you still maintain that you think it is appropriate for members of your department to also be contractors for your department?

[Bill Matthews]

I maintain, Mr. Chair, that I believe it is appropriate if it is properly disclosed and there are no conflicts.

I do want to remind the committee that—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Go ahead, Mr. Matthews.

[Bill Matthews]

—for public servants, I believe it's true that if it is properly disclosed, it might be okay in terms of what they do in their own time. Let's not forget that at National Defence, we have the same rule. We have armed forces members, and also reservists, whom we expect to have other jobs.

Again, as long as it's properly disclosed and signed off—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Mr. Yeo was not a reservist, just to be clear.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm afraid you're done. There is more time for the official opposition down the road.

Ms. Khalid, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Chair. Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Matthews, you mentioned in your opening statement that “we have evidence that Mr. Yeo carried on in his role with Dalian after joining the public service.”

Can you describe what that evidence is?

[Bill Matthews]

Certainly, Mr. Chair, we've evidence that his name was still appearing on contracts after he started his job with the public service. That would be the key piece of evidence I would offer. During his testimony earlier this week, he mentioned that he launched processes at Dalian to put his interest in “a blind trust”, I believe he said, but that took some time, and he regretted being so slow.

I would come back to this, Mr. Chair: It does not matter to me if he did that quickly or slowly. He still did not meet his obligations as an employee of the Government of Canada to disclose his conflicts.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you for that.

You also talked about top secret security clearance. I'm really perplexed here. When a top secret security clearance check is done, even in your own department, is there any process for cross-referencing contractors and subcontractors? What exactly do you assess when you're hiring people and also when you are giving out contracts? Are there any checks done?

[Bill Matthews]

On the security clearance process, it's a separate group that does that. There is no cross-referencing to what was disclosed by the employee from a conflict of interest perspective in terms of feeding back. I would assume that as part of the security clearance process, if Mr. Yeo had indeed documented properly his various other business dealings, it would likely have fed into our security clearance folks. However, they don't come back and say, “Oh, by the way, we found these other businesses. Are you aware of those?” There is no cross-referencing done there. I assume it's a privacy issue, but I'm speculating.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Do you think that those cross-references should be done?

[Bill Matthews]

That's an excellent question, Mr. Chair, and I think it's something that the employer will have to think about in terms of how we move forward on this. I wouldn't want to speculate on what the right approach is.

I do want to stress that I don't believe that this is as widespread as Mr. Yeo does. I believe that we are dealing with a small percentage of public servants, and I don't want to paint them all with the same brush.

I am concerned about those who have activities and who have not disclosed them. With regard to the ones who have properly disclosed and have received permission to carry on, that's great.

We might disagree on whether that's appropriate or not. I am more preoccupied with ensuring that all employees who have other activities properly disclose them and have them validated by an independent person in terms of conflict of interest.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

I know that the notice of meeting says that we are here to discuss “Report 1, ArriveCAN, of the 2024 Reports of the Auditor General of Canada”, so I think I should probably ask you some questions around that also.

Did the Department of National Defence have anything to do with the development of the ArriveCAN app?

[Bill Matthews]

No, Mr. Chair, the Department of National Defence was not involved with the ArriveCAN app.

The link to us is obviously through the suppliers that were involved in ArriveCAN and that we have contracts with: GC Strategies, Dalian and Coradix.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Was your office contacted by the Auditor General's office with regard to her reports or the investigation?

[Bill Matthews]

We were not contacted as part of the Auditor General's work on ArriveCAN. I've certainly read the reports.

I did speak to the Auditor General when I became aware of Mr. Yeo's activities, just to make sure that she was aware of what we had stumbled upon, so I've had that conversation, but we were not part of the audit work itself.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Has the RCMP contacted your office regarding ArriveCAN or Dalian or any of the contractors that are involved?

[Bill Matthews]

Not to my knowledge, Mr. Chair.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

What checks does your department have when it comes to ensuring security?

[Bill Matthews]

At the Department of National Defence, obviously security is very much top of mind. We will not let employees or contractors start work without having the proper security clearance or mitigation measures around their clearance until it comes through.

Troy has more experience on security and contractors than I do. Troy, do you have anything to add here?

[Troy Crosby]

There are two elements.

Of course, there are personal security clearances, but from a contract perspective, a security requirements checklist is filled in at the beginning of the contracting process to determine the appropriate classification levels for the work to be conducted. Before the contracts are awarded, there's a determination of whether the bidders do, in fact, meet those requirements.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have time for a brief question, Ms. Khalid, if you have one last one.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Maybe it's brief.

What kind of services do you contract for when it comes to security?

[Bill Matthews]

I'm not sure that I understand the question, Mr. Chair.