Public Accounts Committee on April 3rd, 2024

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to ask the deputy auditor general about the findings on page 15. The subtitle is “No governance structure or budget”. The Auditor General's office found that “from April 2020 to July 2021, when the ArriveCAN application was being developed and regularly updated, no formal agreement existed between the Public Health Agency of Canada and the Canada Border Services Agency on their respective roles and responsibilities.” It goes on to say in the final sentence, “In our view, the Public Health Agency of Canada, as the business owner, was responsible for establishing the governance structure.” Then, later on it says, “A letter of intent between the agencies was signed in July 2021 and was in force until March 2022.”

Mr. Hayes, what evidence did your office review or not review that suggested that no governance structure was adhered to?

[Andrew Hayes]

As mentioned in the report, we expected that the Public Health Agency of Canada, as the business owner, would have established the governance structure. They would have clearly outlined the roles and responsibilities expected of their officials and the CBSA. We would have expected a budget at the very least and some objectives, cost estimates, resource needs assessments and other risk management activities, and those were simply not in place. Quite frankly, without a budget, it's difficult to monitor costs and to identify when costs are rising outside of the acceptable range.

I would say, as the Auditor General has mentioned, that we were disappointed by what we did not find in this report.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Mr. Moor, to your knowledge, why wasn't information as basic as a budget supplied on behalf of the CBSA?

[Jonathan Moor]

I think, as Mr. Hayes does, that there was no memorandum of understanding between the Public Health Agency, which was responsible for the public health version of ArriveCAN, and—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

What about the governance structure that you're a part of? You mentioned in response to my previous question that there was a governance structure and that you're adamant that this governance structure was put in place, but we see that there wasn't one and there were largely failures with what existed after that.

What knowledge do you have of the governance structure, and why wasn't the question raised about a budget?

[Jonathan Moor]

There was an emergency management governance structure, which was an operational environment, and there were regular—I would say daily—meetings between PHAC, the CBSA and others in order to make adjustments to ArriveCAN in line with the orders in council.

It was disappointing that no funding was provided and, therefore, no budget was set. If a budget had been set and we had received funding, it would have been treated more like a project for which we would have brought in the governance structures. However, as Mr. Hayes said, that was the responsibility of the Public Health Agency of Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is the time.

Just so our witnesses know, we have two more questioners. One is from the official opposition. The government members will then round it out for us today.

Mr. Nater, you have the floor for five minutes.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Again, thank you to our witnesses.

Mr. Moor, could you confirm for us how many employees of CBSA are currently actively engaged in outside employment or contracting?

[Jonathan Moor]

I cannot confirm that number, but I can ask the CBSA to come back to you with a number. That would be the human resources branch.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Are you telling me that you came to this committee meeting unprepared to answer that question, despite the fact that this has been the topic of discussion for some weeks?

[Jonathan Moor]

My understanding is that a question has been raised and they will be giving a response. They are now doing a check of everybody to make sure they have the full disclosure before they come up with a definitive number.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Are you personally aware of any employees within CBSA who have outside employment or outside contracts?

[Jonathan Moor]

I was personally involved in a conflicts of interest discussion last year for one of my employees, who was proposing to take on an unpaid role. We perceived that to be a conflict of interest, and it went through the standard process. The evidence was gathered by our human resources branch. We discussed the process with the individual concerned, and they decided to withdraw from that because there was at least a perceived conflict of interest.

I am aware of the process that's being operated, but it's operated by our human resources branch.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

On the other side, are you aware of any contracts currently at CBSA that involve employees from other government departments?

[Jonathan Moor]

As a result of the investigations that are ongoing, we have done some searches in GEDS and have identified some individuals. If you're in GEDS, it implies that you're an employee of another government department. We have therefore contacted the departments where each of those individuals worked. I think it was about six or seven individuals. The director general responsible for that has confirmed with the other government departments that there was no conflict in those cases. However, that work is ongoing—

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I'm sorry. I just want to stop you for a second. You say there was no conflict, but they are in fact government employees who have contracts with CBSA. Is that correct?

Can you confirm that there are government employees, public servants, at other departments who currently have active contracts with the Canada Border Services Agency? Are you confirming that, yes or no?

[Jonathan Moor]

I cannot confirm that, but we can get back to you with the details of that individual—

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Sir, I'm going to stop you right there. You said they were checking GEDS. They confirmed with the departments and the director general that they were in fact employees of those departments. You said there were six or seven of them. Are you now unwilling to confirm that?

[Jonathan Moor]

No. What I'm saying is that six or seven were checked. I do know for a fact that some of them were inappropriately on GEDS and had actually resigned and moved elsewhere.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Again, of those six or seven, how many are Government of Canada employees with contracts at CBSA?

[Jonathan Moor]

I do not have those details, but I can get those for you.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Sir, you just said there were six or seven. It's a small number. Are you telling me you can't confirm one way or the other?

[Jonathan Moor]

I can't confirm that because it wasn't in my area. We can come back with—

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Sir, you are the chief financial officer of the CBSA. You came here knowing that this would be a topic of discussion. You're unable to tell us this information, yet you seem to have information on the process that happened. You seem to have the information that these checks were done, but you can't tell us what actually happened.

[Jonathan Moor]

I'm willing to come back to you on the level of details for these individuals.