Evidence of meeting #115 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was office.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Cahill  Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Dominic Rochon  Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Samantha Tattersall  Assistant Comptroller General, Acquired Services and Assets Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Annie Boudreau  Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Karen Hogan  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Andrew Hayes  Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Jean-René Drapeau  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon everyone.

Welcome to meeting number 115 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, although I believe everyone we're expecting is in the room. That could change.

Pursuant to the Standing Orders, members can be attending in person or by using the Zoom application.

I will remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is resuming consideration of Report 1 of the 2024 reports of the Auditor General of Canada entitled “COVID‑19 Pandemic: ArriveCAN”.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses.

We have with us the Honourable Anita Anand, president of the Treasury Board. It's nice to have you here today, Minister.

From the Treasury Board and the Treasury Board Secretariat, we have Annie Boudreau, assistant secretary, expenditure management sector; Dominic Rochon, chief information officer of Canada; Karen Cahill, assistant secretary and chief financial officer; Francis Trudel, associate chief human resources officer; and Samantha Tattersall, assistant comptroller general, acquired services and assets sector.

Ms. Anand, you'll have the floor for up to five minutes. After that, we'll proceed to rounds of questions.

I'll turn things over to you, Minister.

3:30 p.m.

Oakville Ontario

Liberal

Anita Anand LiberalPresident of the Treasury Board

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon everyone.

I thank all the members of the committee for inviting me to appear before them today to discuss the Auditor General's Report 1 on ArriveCAN.

Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge that we are speaking and meeting here today on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I am joined today by members of my department.

Mr. Chair, Canadians expect their government to introduce the necessary rules and controls to responsibly manage their hard-earned money.

Since the start of my mandate, with the collaboration of my cabinet colleagues, I've been working to ensure the efficient management of our resources and of public funds.

While the Auditor General confirmed that rules to ensure sound procurement and management practices across government are in place, her audit revealed very concerning conclusions.

That's why we've taken a series of measures meant to reinforce our oversight of departmental practices in support of efficient management and stewardship across government.

I recently announced a series of actions that the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat will take to strengthen our oversight of departmental practices and processes to support effective and streamlined management across government.

First, we're introducing a new risk and compliance mechanism.

By using this mechanism, the Treasury Board Secretariat, or TBS, will more actively supervise management practices as well as results government-wide in order to prevent and detect inadequate performance and inappropriate use of public funds.

The process will be informed by several sources of information, including a horizontal audit that the comptroller general is undertaking across numerous departments. This audit will assess governance, decision-making and controls associated with professional services contracts, including IT.

You'll also remember that, in the fall of 2023, I published a policy called “Manager's Guide: Key Considerations When Procuring Professional Services”.

The purpose of this guide was and continues to be reliance on third party contracting. At that time, I said the manager's guide is evergreen. What that means is that it is continually open to be updated and changed.

We take the Auditor General's and the procurement ombud's recent conclusions very seriously, which is why, at the end of March, I announced some important updates to the manager's guide.

In order to further strengthen the guide's use, we will enforce managers' responsibilities when procuring professional services by integrating certain points of the guide into the mandatory procedures.

In addition, the chief human resources officer is reviewing the directive on conflict of interest to ensure that the requirements are clear and effective, particularly as they relate to employees who engage in outside employment.

We are also examining guidance on conflict of interest provided to deputy heads to support the effective exercise of their authorities and responsibilities under this directive.

We will also consider mandatory training for employees and managers, as well as additional oversight by my department, if need be.

Additional oversight could be included in terms of strengthening the consequences of non-compliance with the directive.

Finally, we are improving the Open Government portal to ensure that information about contracts is presented clearly, accurately and in a more user-friendly way for people inside and outside government.

Canadians deserve to know how their hard-earned tax dollars are being spent and that they're being spent wisely on priorities that matter to them. We will ensure that department heads of the public service manage their conduct effectively and preserve public confidence.

Thank you.

I'm available to answer your questions.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you for being here today.

To open things up, Ms. Kusie, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Minister, for being with us here today.

Yesterday we had a historic day in Canada. We had an instance that has not occurred in over 100 years: A private citizen was called to the bar of the House of Commons and was reprimanded for not responding to questions that had been asked of him.

Of course I'm referring to Kristian Firth, one member of the two-person GC Strategies company. They were responsible and were the main vendors in the ArriveCAN scandal for a $60-million app. A minimum of $60 million was spent on the ArriveCAN app. In fact, there are individuals who state that they could have made this app for $80,000, but Kristian Firth, the person I'm referring to here today, and GC Strategies made $19 million, as far as is known currently, off the ArriveCAN app.

My colleague, in the first round of questioning for Mr. Firth, asked Mr. Firth directly if the Government of Canada—at a time when there is a $52.9-billion deficit and when Canadians are struggling—had asked Mr. Firth and GC Strategies to repay these funds to Canadians. His response was no.

I am asking you, please, Minister Anand, if you have asked GC Strategies and Kristian Firth for this money back for Canadians from the ArriveCAN app and from GC Strategies. Have you asked for this money back, Minister?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

The Government of Canada takes allegations of wrongdoing and fraudulent activity extremely seriously. Minister LeBlanc, the minister in charge of the CBSA, specifically mentioned in the House today that there's an ongoing RCMP investigation—

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Minister, have you asked for the money back?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

—and that we intend to recoup all funds for the the Canadian taxpayers—

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Have you asked for the money back, Minister, with just a yes or a no, please?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

—once that investigation is concluded.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Are you going to ask for the money back, Minister, for Canadians?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

Again I will say that departments are expected to record a receivable in their accounts and to pursue timely and cost-effective collection action—

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Minister, it's expected, when we have a $52.9-billion deficit—

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

—for debts owed to the Crown, and that may include overpayments.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

—and continuous deficits for nine years, that you will ask for this money back on behalf of Canadians. Canadians are counting on you to do it.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

As I said, our departments are recording receivables in their accounts and that may include overpayments, and we're—

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Minister, I am going to move on to the next piece, since it appears you're not willing to ask for this money back on behalf of Canadians. I will move on.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

That's not true, actually. I just said—

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

You're not giving me a yes or a no, Minister.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

I actually just said that they're recorded as monies owed if wrongfully collected.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay, but have you contacted GC Strategies and Kristian Firth?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

I also specified that the RCMP investigation is ongoing and that they are recorded as amounts to be recovered once that investigation—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Then are you pledging here today to get that money back for Canadians?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

Yes, we will.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay. I look forward to that report in the future, and should Mr. Firth ever come back to the House of Commons, I expect him to say that this money for Canadians has been asked for.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON

We will always safeguard taxpayer dollars. That's what we do at Treasury Board and the Government of Canada.

Thank you.