Public Accounts Committee on April 18th, 2024

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I look forward to that, Minister, as do Canadians. Thank you.

As well, yesterday, Minister, we heard testimony from the same individual, Kristian Firth, that he regularly met with Paul Girard, the former CIO of the Treasury Board, outside of the office to discuss the health of his contracts. Are you concerned that a top official in your department would regularly discuss contracts outside of the office?

[Karen Cahill, Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat]

I can take this question, Minister.

As normal practice and part of the responsibilities of contracting with the Government of Canada, public servants may meet with the vendors community to discuss ongoing contracts and other subject matter items related to those contracts.

Mr. Girard left the Government of Canada in December 2022. I'm committed to doing more research and getting back to you and the committee members in writing on what we find out about those meetings referenced by Mr. Firth.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Given the outcomes, I definitely would show concern over these discussions outside of the office.

Minister, you were just indicating that you were taking steps to eliminate conflicts of interest, yet when I'm looking here at a report from last year, 2023-24, out of the 162 public servants who declared a conflict of interest, 38% of them were actually determined to be in a conflict of interest, which is an increase of 2% from the 36% before.

I'd like to ask you this, then, Minister: What is the value of the contracts of the 38% of public servants who were found to be in a conflict of interest?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I will start by saying that the rule is that you must disclose all conflicts of interest—any real or perceived conflicts—and that those must be assessed—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Indeed, and 38% were found to be in a real conflict of interest, so what is the value of the contracts of the employees who were found to be in a conflict of interest? What are Canadians on the hook for with the double-dipping of these individuals?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

First and foremost, anybody who has not complied with the requirements in the directive will be subject to disciplinary measures—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I'll try another question. Do we know who they work for? Which departments do they work for, Minister?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

—up to and including termination of employment.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Minister, I don't know how you don't know this. We had a very serious situation with the head of Dalian, and we want to eliminate this in the future. This information as to who was in a conflict of interest, the value of those contracts and what departments they're working for should be at the top of your mind.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

So—

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

If I may remind the honourable member, Mr. Chair.... May I have a moment to remind the honourable member?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Let me just lay down some....

Yes, in this committee, I do allow witnesses to answer briefly.

Ms. Kusie, your time is up.

I will hear from the minister, but it must be brief, and I'd like the answer to come from you, please.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Sure. The answer will come from me.

Perhaps the honourable member is not aware, but ministers don't hire and fire members of the public service. Her questions failed to take that into account.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Shanahan, you have the floor for six minutes, please—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I have a quick point of order.

I want to make sure that we're getting accurate information. The minister said that Mr. Girard left the public service in 2022. I have his LinkedIn profile, which says he left in 2023.

Does the minister want to correct the response?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Genuis, that is not a point of order. There will be another opposition slot in a minute.

Mrs. Shanahan, you have six minutes, please.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

It's actually the official who said that, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

There are six minutes for you, Mrs. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the minister, as well as the other witnesses on the panel, for being here today in front of this committee.

I'll just remind Canadians watching at home, and maybe some colleagues, that it is not normal practice for ministers to attend meetings of the public accounts committee. Normally, we study the reports of the Auditor General and we hear from officials up to the deputy minister level. However, I am very pleased to see that the minister is in front of us today to answer questions if, of course, members would allow her to answer questions, which would be very helpful to the work that we have before us.

My first question for the minister is this: What role did the Treasury Board have in the development of ArriveCAN?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

The first and most important point is that the Treasury Board did not have any involvement in the development of the ArriveCAN app. Deputy heads are responsible for ensuring that decisions on procurement and the management of contracts follow the procurement policies and ensure sound fiscal management.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Minister, but we did hear, in the numerous meetings that we've had on this issue, from other officials of other departments—including the CBSA, the procurement department and other departments—that there is a role for the TBS with regard to procurement.

Perhaps you can explain that further to us. Is there an oversight role? What exactly would the TBS role be?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you for the question.

Treasury Board sets the policies and defines the responsibilities for departments. Given the volume of procurement, controls are in place at various levels based on contract value, risk and complexity. Deputy heads of departments and heads of agencies are responsible for procurement activities in their organizations.

The Auditor General's report specifically mentioned the CBSA. It is the CBSA, in all of her recommendations, that bears responsibility for ensuring contracting practices are compliant with the policies that define the responsibilities for departments.

Approval from Treasury Board is only required for contracting values over certain dollar amounts or risk levels. The department heads and deputy heads bear responsibility for compliance, and we want to see compliance with Treasury Board guidelines.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

Indeed, that is the reason we typically see deputy heads in our meetings here at public accounts when the Auditor General produces reports that bring those kinds of issues to our attention.

You mentioned policies and guidelines. There is an oversight role for TBS. Of course, of concern here is the oversight of IT projects. They're particularly gnarly to get around in terms of procurement. We've heard from other officials about the lack of expertise we have in the public service.

Can you expand for us here today on what the role of your office is, particularly in dealing with the oversight of IT projects?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I most definitely can.

Our role at TBS is designed to support IT project success. Again, deputy heads and departmental chief information officers—CIOs—remain responsible for the overall achievement of business outcomes. There are many IT projects being managed across institutions. It would not be feasible or effective to review each and every one of those projects at Treasury Board. Therefore, our oversight at TBS is provided on projects of significant complexity, value and risk, among other factors. The ArriveCAN app did not meet those criteria at the time.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

Of course, you've held a number of ministerial positions. Did you, in any of your ministerial positions, sign contracts for ArriveCAN?