Public Accounts Committee on April 18th, 2024

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

This is a piece of information that can be given only by the CBSA, not by me as President of the Treasury Board. They are the ones who approved this contract. They are the ones who were engaged with the suppliers—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I get it. I have to move on.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

—so it's difficult for me to even provide that response.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Aside from ArriveCAN, you said your department did $10 million of contracts with them. GC Strategies had a special relationship, not just with the CBSA but with your department as well.

In the time I have left, I want to ask you about ministerial responsibility in our system of government.

Ministers don't do everything themselves, but they are supposed to take responsibility for their departments because they establish the policies and the culture that guide them.

Do you believe in the principle of ministerial responsibility as it relates to ArriveCAN?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I believe that we need to ensure we have the rules in place to ensure integrity in contracting.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You're avoiding the question. I think it's fairly obvious. It's a yes-or-no question. Do you believe in the principle of ministerial responsibility as it relates to ArriveCAN?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I believe in the principle of ministerial accountability as a general matter.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

And in this case?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I will say that I believe in the Westminster system of government as a whole, which is why I ran for public office.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. What does ministerial responsibility mean to you in this context?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Ministerial responsibility in this context means coming to committee, answering the questions that members of the opposition and parties in the House—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

By saying you don't know?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

—have, and I'm answering questions, as I expect all of my colleagues to do, honestly and—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

What does it mean to you that your government is responsible, that the ministers in your government are responsible?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis. That's your last word.

I will give the last word, if there's any, to the minister, and then I will turn—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'd love a response, yes.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Chair, everyone in this room believes in the Westminster system of government. That is why we are contributing to our democracy, and I appreciate the questions that my colleagues have answered across the board.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

I'll turn now to Ms. Khalid. You have the floor for five minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, Minister and officials, for being here today.

Just to carry on with that point, Minister, I know that over the past eight years you have been a huge advocate for ensuring there is inclusivity in our procurement system and that there is transparency in our procurement system. We've had a number of conversations on this as well, and I want to highlight that when we talk about the public service—the thousands and thousands of employees who do the hard work, who provide the service to Canadians—this ArriveCAN app and all of these ensuing committee meetings and investigations are not a reflection of the public service.

Minister, perhaps you can start by helping us to understand, as you have been responsible for dealing with this portfolio, the steps you have taken to rectify this. How have we, as a public service, tried to make sure that these instances by a small number of people do not disrupt the trust in our public institutions and the work we do collectively as a government to provide these services to Canadians?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Chair, I want to review the measures that I announced on March 20 to further improve the policies that we have in place at the Treasury Board related to contracting.

First and foremost, I released an updated guide on the issues related to third party contracting to ensure that there is greater oversight on contracting with external consultants. That is the second edition of the guide that I have announced and provided since I was appointed, which was less than a year ago, so you can see how seriously I take that issue.

The second announcement that I made was related to a horizontal audit that we are taking across government, especially with large departments, with regard to governance and decision-making. We plan to find out exactly what is happening in those departments, especially in the area of contracting with third parties.

The third announcement was that we are updating our directive on conflicts of interest, because we need to make sure that in this economy, the conflict of interest directive is applicable and pertinent and responds to the realities of the work environment that we currently have. You will see me publish a revised version of the conflict of interest directive this year.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks very much for that, Minister.

You've said many times that you have not signed off on any of these contracts associated with the ArriveCAN app and that investigations that are ongoing. However, I'm sure you must have received some briefings around what has happened with GC Strategies. Perhaps you can share with us what you have been briefed on and what steps are being taken now.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

As I indicated, I am an extremely thorough person, so as soon as I understood that there were contracting concerns at the CBSA with regard to this application, I asked for more information from my department. I had a long conversation with my deputy minister at the time. I have asked my team at the ministry level to be in constant contact with regard to information about all contracts with the supplier. I have concerns, for sure, given the findings of the Auditor General herself, given the findings of the ombudsman for procurement and given the upcoming report of the RCMP on this matter.

Yes, I am concerned. Yes, we need to address the issue. That is exactly why I made my announcement on March 20, and I continue to follow this matter closely.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much for clarifying that, Minister.

Can you help us clarify a little bit more? What are the consequences of non-compliance with contracting rules, and where do you think we should be moving forward with that?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

First and foremost, what I want to say is that the deputy heads of departments and agencies have the responsibility to ensure that the rules are complied with. The Auditor General found that adequate rules existed, but they were not complied with at the CBSA. I believe there is one other recommendation that is related to another government agency.

In terms of consequences for non-compliance, those would be determined by the deputy minister or heads of agency, but I can say specifically that if you do not comply with the directive on conflict of interest, you could face termination.

For further explication, I will ask my department to explain further—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We're well over. I wanted to hear a full answer, and we did. Could you provide that to us in writing?

We're well over the time. I also know, Minister, that you have another appointment.

I do want to thank Ms. Anand and officials of the Treasury Board Secretariat for appearing today and assisting us in our work in relation to the study of “Report 1: ArriveCAN”.

Could you please send any other information? I know we had several items that were promised to us. We thank you for that.

I will now suspend this meeting for about five minutes so that these witnesses can be excused and our next witnesses can come in.

This meeting is suspended for five minutes.