Public Accounts Committee on April 18th, 2024

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Sure.

Thank you, Chair.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Actually, 5,000 is an estimation contained in budget 2024. We expect that is the number that will result after natural attrition.

However, there is a process we will follow in phase 2 of the refocused spending initiative. It will involve consultation with all departments to identify where their needs are and where service delivery would not be interrupted through natural attrition. We do not expect, as the PBO indicated with regard to our first phase of refocused government spending, that service delivery will be negatively impacted—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you—

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

—and certainly, this is going to be by attrition, so there won't be Harper era-type cuts.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Minister.

We're turning now to our second round.

Mr. Barrett, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The top arrive scam contractor, GC Strategies owner Kristian Firth, had his home raided by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police two days ago as part of the Mounties' investigation into his work with the Trudeau government. Kristian Firth is well documented as being part of more than a dozen investigations into fraud and forgery due to his role with government contracting. He has a track record of meeting some of the most senior public servants at bars and steak houses.

Minister, do you think that's normal?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I was not here at that time as President of the Treasury Board. However, I would expect that rules would be followed in every instance. Because I was not here, I am not certain if the rules were followed.

I will ask my colleague to respond.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Minister, it's a question of judgment.

The question is, do you think Canadians find it acceptable that millionaire consultants are discussing government contracts with senior officials, many of whom control these contracts—chatting over whisky and steak about getting paid with taxpayer money?

Do you think Canadians find that acceptable?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I do not know exactly what occurred, but I don't find it acceptable to violate any rule or principle.

There's importance in letting the RCMP do their work. I am not, as a minister of the Crown, going to interfere in the investigation of an independent organization. I think it is important that we let the investigation continue. Then, as the Minister of Public Safety said, we look forward to following the recommendations of the RCMP.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Minister, do you know what TBS employees discussed at these outings in steak houses and bars with the millionaire consultants? Mr. Paul Girard, Sevac Eskibashian and Gary Hobin are directors—the former chief information officer and senior advisers.

Do you know what they discussed?

[Karen Cahill]

If you don't mind, I'll take the question, Minister.

As I mentioned—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Ms. Cahill, the question is whether the minister knows. Unless your answer is about whether or not the minister knows, I would like to hear from the minister, please.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I do not know. I was not the President of the Treasury Board at the time.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Minister, I'm glad you find it funny. However, this is a $60-million scandal. We have the RCMP kicking doors in because of fraud and corruption. These are people who work in your department. Even though they shuffle the deck chairs on the Titanic every couple of months, you're still responsible for the department. If your suggestion is that we need the former President of the Treasury Board to come and tell us what's going on in your department, I'd appreciate that as a suggestion. It is incumbent on you, when there is a matter of great public interest like this, to at least show an interest and concern for what's going on.

My question to you is this: On what date was Minh Doan hired as the chief information officer?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

It is not my purview, Mr. Chair.

In response to that allegation that I find this funny or that I in some way do not care about this issue, it is not my purview to oversee the day-to-day work of employees—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Right: No one is in charge over there, Minister. No one is in charge.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

—and I, as the president of the Treasury Board, will continue to ensure that we promulgate guidelines and policies for public servants to follow. It is the responsibility of deputy heads—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Do you know when Minh Doan was hired?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

—including the deputy head of the CBSA, to ensure that rules are followed.

In terms of the individual the honourable colleague just mentioned, I will ask the CIO to respond.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Just the date, please, sir.

[Dominic Rochon, Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat]

I believe it was May 2023. I can't give you the specific date, but I can get that to you in writing, no problem.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Was it a competitive process?

[Dominic Rochon]

As far as I understand it, he came over at level.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

It wasn't a competitive process. Who was in charge of that decision, that hiring?

[Dominic Rochon]

It would have been my predecessor, Catherine Luelo.