Public Accounts Committee on May 16th, 2024

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

My next question is this: Were you aware of the initial allegations of misconduct made by Botler?

[John Ossowski]

As I've answered, those allegations did not come to the agency, as Ms. O'Gorman has testified, until the fall of 2022, and I had already retired at that point in time.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Looking back, do you see any serious concerns with internal processes and mechanisms because that didn't come up? Is there something that you would do differently?

[John Ossowski]

If the allegations of wrongdoing had been brought to my attention, I would have done something about it, but they were not.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That goes back to the question I asked, though. It wasn't brought to your attention. What mechanisms need to change so that it could be brought to the attention of this important role?

[John Ossowski]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Dutt was free to email me directly, and she did not. My officials dealt with her complaints, and Ms. O'Gorman dealt with her subsequent issue around their complaint.

Mr. Utano testified that the first issue that he received from Ms. Dutt was around pay. It was not about a complaint per se that needed any further investigation, and it was certainly not brought to my attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Next up, Ms. Block, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I echo my colleague's comments when it comes to the fact that it is absolutely mind-boggling to have the former president of the CBSA state that he remains proud of the work his department undertook, when it is actually the CBSA that has served as a bellwether for the complete debacle we are studying, now known as arrive scam, and all of the other issues that have started to arise when it comes to procurement and contracting across all departments in the Government of Canada.

I'm going to circle back to some of the questions that my colleague Mr. Barrett asked, just to make sure I heard your answers correctly, Mr. Ossowski.

I'll start by restating the umbrage you seem to have taken or are taking with the fact that individuals have accused you of lying when you came to committee, yet when you appeared before the government operations and estimates committee, you did lie about ever meeting Kristian Firth. You did not say, “I do not recall,” when the question was asked of you. You gave a definitive no. We have that in the testimony.

As we know, at a subsequent meeting, you then corrected the record to say that you had in fact met with him. You stated that you were able to make the correction because the CBSA paid you to provide you with a document stating that you had in fact held this meeting. I think most Canadians would find it strange that a former employee gets rehired as a casual employee under a temporary contract to gain access to information needed to correct the record or defend themselves when most people pay to get access to information from the Government of Canada through ATIPs.

From your earlier response, are we to understand that this is a common practice, people getting hired to gain access to information so they can defend themselves?

[John Ossowski]

Let's be very clear here. When I originally answered no, I testified in December 2022. I did so without the benefit of any support from the agency. It was based on my recollection. I answered too quickly. I should have gone to the agency afterwards and asked for them to verify my testimony. I didn't.

In October of last year—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Mr. Chair—

[John Ossowski]

Mr. Chair, may I finish my answer, please?

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

No, that is not the answer to the question I asked.

[John Ossowski]

I'm getting to it, if I may, Mr. Chair.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

No, Mr. Chair. This is my time—

[John Ossowski]

Mr. Chair, I did not go back to the agency—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

This is my time.

[John Ossowski]

—as a part of a casual contract—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I have asked a question, and I expect an answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Block, hold on. I've stopped the clock.

Mr. Ossowski, I know it can be frustrating, but the time is for the members. There are other members who will be asking questions, and I am sure they will allow you to come back to it.

I do recognize that you provided an answer. The time is now Mrs. Block's. I'm going to turn back to that, but first, Mr. Drouin has a point of order.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Chair, just a reminder that the rules need to be followed. When two witnesses or a witness and an MP are speaking simultaneously, it's hard for the interpreters to do their job. I want to ensure that we carry out our duties respectfully.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That's true.

That's another reason for it, to maintain order as well to ensure members are not speaking over the interpreters. I know committees can clash, so I do try to maintain order.

Ms. Block, you have the floor again for two minutes and 10 seconds.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and I apologize. I expect that, when a member indicates that they are receiving an answer to a question they did not ask, the witness will respect that.

My question to you, Mr. Ossowski, is this: Is it a common practice for individuals to get hired as casual employees under temporary contracts in order to gain access to information they need to defend themselves in front of committee?

[John Ossowski]

To be clear, I was not on casual employment status in October when I apologized, and yes, it is normal practice for people to be given access to their information through casual employment. I did that, for example, for the public order inquiry. This is common practice so that people can refresh their memory and provide committees with the most accurate information for their deliberations.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Who was your contact at the CBSA for requesting these documents?

[John Ossowski]

I didn't request documents; I requested access to my email. I've been given a laptop so I can sign on with my credentials to access my emails and calendar.