Public Accounts Committee on May 16th, 2024

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

President O'Gorman stated you had access to all of your emails and any other information you requested, so that is in direct conflict with what you just stated. You testified here today that you accessed information only to confirm a meeting and, I'm assuming, a calendar. Did it really take you eight hours to review your calendar event in order to confirm your meeting with Kristian Firth?

[John Ossowski]

I already replied that I was not on casual employment status in October when I had that validated around the Teams meeting with Kristian Firth, so that was just based on me. I requested documents from the agency to validate that, but I was not on casual employment status at that point in time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is the time.

Up next is Ms. Khalid. Ms. Khalid, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to our witness for being here today.

Mr. Ossowski, can I just, first and foremost, confirm this with you? Did you have any interaction with any ministers while you were dealing with the ArriveCAN app?

[John Ossowski]

Yes, I was involved in cabinet meetings and briefings of the ministers regularly, in terms of the border aspects of how we were managing the pandemic.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Did any ministers sign off on any of the contracts that are in question today?

[John Ossowski]

No, I don't believe the minister was ever required to sign off on any of these contracts.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

When we're talking about your involvement with these three companies, does this date to pre-COVID or pre-ArriveCAN? Prior to COVID, did you have interactions with these organizations that we're talking about today?

[John Ossowski]

Which three companies...?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

We're talking about Dalian. We're talking about the ones that are associated with the ArriveCAN app, the contractors.

[John Ossowski]

No, the only interactions were the well-noted one with GC Strategies and the Botler interaction.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

What kinds of interactions did you have with them pre-COVID?

[John Ossowski]

Pre-COVID...? I have to go back and check the dates specifically, but there's a record, I believe in the government operations committee, that I was initially approached while there was an opportunity to use a tool that Botler had developed, and then there was a subsequent Teams meeting, which Mr. Firth attended, at which I was actually pitched the approach. I think that was during the pandemic. It was not before the pandemic.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

When you interact with them, how do you conduct yourself and how does your department conduct itself when you're dealing with companies like this?

[John Ossowski]

If I'm being given a demonstration of something, I pay attention to the demonstration and I ask questions. It's as simple as that.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Okay.

Can we turn now to how you've engaged with Kristian Firth of GC Strategies? Can we talk about the infamous whisky...whatever it was, and that organization or event that happened? Can you tell us a bit about that?

[John Ossowski]

I have no knowledge of that event, aside from what's been revealed during these proceedings.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Have you met with Kristian Firth?

[John Ossowski]

I have never met Mr. Kristian Firth.

He was on one Teams meeting when I was being presented with the Botler AI solution. He had no speaking role in the meeting. To this day, I don't recall him even being at the meeting.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Have you met with any of his organization's contractors or subcontractors in an outside setting beyond the work that was being done?

[John Ossowski]

I have no recollection of meeting any of these contractors in or outside of the workplace.

I will just caveat that by saying there was a recognition event for the team working on the app. There may have been contractors present at that, but that was a virtual “thank you” for the people who had been working very hard to get the app out the door.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Were you aware of CBSA employees who had been hanging out with GC Strategies and its contractors, etc.?

[John Ossowski]

No. It was never brought to my attention.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Okay. Is there anything you would like to add?

You know what? I understand and I appreciate it. I really want to thank the CBSA and the officers who were on the front lines during COVID-19, which was the most difficult time Canada has gone through in a very long time. Our CBSA officers were there. They were supportive. They were trying to make sure that Canadians were protected.

Going through all of this.... Just to reframe exactly what we're doing, we're talking about the ArriveCAN app, which we think cost too much money. It is not about the fact that the app was not effective, that it didn't work or that it was not helpful to Canadians. It is literally about the fact that it cost too much money and about how that procurement process happened.

I just want to differentiate between the work our CBSA officers do and what happened here with the ArriveCAN app.

Mr. Ossowski, I'll leave you with the last words, if there's anything you want to add to that.

[John Ossowski]

Thank you.

As I say, I am and I will remain proud of the way the agency responded during the pandemic. There were obviously lessons learned from the app and the procurement process, which everyone regrets and wishes had not been the case. They're being corrected. The agency will be in a better posture to deal with whatever curveballs it gets thrown down the road.

If I could just go back, Mr. Chair, if there's some time just to clarify Ms. Block's—