Evidence of meeting #122 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Actually, we're well over the time.
I'm sure you'll have a chance to come back to that. I appreciate that you have a lot to say. That's why we're just going to begin our third round.
Mr. Barrett, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Did you have access to the binder prepared for CBSA President O'Gorman before her appearance at committee, either in an electronic format or in a paper format?
11:10 a.m.
As an Individual
I have not accessed, seen or been sent any briefing materials for Ms. O'Gorman's use.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Was one offered? Was any of that material offered to you?
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
I mean any preparation material that was used or designed for the use of the current president of the CBSA.
11:10 a.m.
As an Individual
The only thing I recall is that around our January 18 appearance, when we appeared together, we exchanged opening statements in advance.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
How far in advance?
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
That's interesting. Ms. O'Gorman made a point in her appearance this week of saying there was no effort by anyone to get their stories straight, but certainly, witnesses—a former employee of the government and the current head of an agency—exchanging opening statements days prior to their appearance at committee looks like exactly that.
When you accessed files or resources of the CBSA while in your casual employment status, where did you do that? From what location?
11:10 a.m.
As an Individual
There was no intent to get our story straight. It was a courtesy to share opening remarks.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Answer the question, sir.
11:10 a.m.
As an Individual
The answer to the question is that I accessed these emails and my calendar through a laptop at my home.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Did you attend a CBSA office to receive the laptop or sign the offer of employment?
11:10 a.m.
As an Individual
Yes, I went to the office to receive the laptop and sign my letter of employment.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
You were an employee of PricewaterhouseCoopers on the date that you had access to the CBSA materials. Were you also being paid by PricewaterhouseCoopers on the same day that you were being paid by the Government of Canada?
11:15 a.m.
As an Individual
I don't even remember the exact day that I billed for, so potentially, yes.
Thank you.
May 16th, 2024 / 11:15 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
It sounds like a yes.
We've heard a lot about double-dipping, where we have folks who are providing services to the Government of Canada while also working for the Government of Canada.
We know that PricewaterhouseCoopers does hundreds of millions of dollars in business with the government. The fact that this is further evidence of the disregard for the public dollar in the ongoing scandal of double-dipping is unsurprising, of course, but troubling for Canadians.
You said that you were proud of ArriveCAN. I've talked to frontline border services officers. I speak to them regularly. I spoke to them during the time that you talk about, the challenging time of 2020 to 2022 and in the time since then.
This cost $60 million, and it wasn't necessary. It absolutely was not necessary. You know, you said you would have spent more on hiring border services officers if you had money to do it. However, you had the money. The border services officers have been very clear with me that they could, with resources made available to them, have done more than was done with the app. They would also have been able to do the job they're there to do: to make sure that the travelling public is safe and that we have the proper flow of commerce into our country.
Instead, scammers and grifters were paid. Pools and decks were put on the houses of contractors who added no value to this app, charging 30% in commissions and bonuses paid to executives, while border services officers weren't able to execute their core functions.
To be clear, you're proud of the $60-million price tag on the app.
11:15 a.m.
As an Individual
First of all, I take umbrage that I'm being referred to as double-dipping to prepare for this committee.
11:15 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
You have been, sir.
11:15 a.m.
As an Individual
Second, there was no ongoing source of funds to hire border services officers. My point in my opening remarks was—
11:15 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Mr. Ossowski, you spent $60 million on this thing, so there were funds available. You made a choice, and the choice was to spend it in the way that you did, with 30% commissions going to people who added no value.
You talk about programmers—