Public Accounts Committee on May 23rd, 2024

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and through you, thank you to our witnesses for joining us here this afternoon.

I want to start with you, Ms. Hébert.

I want to talk a little bit about municipal drains. I am a former rural Ontario municipal councillor, and municipal drains are a hugely important aspect of rural infrastructure. They are important for municipalities, the county and farmers.

What we've found over the last number of years is that CN Rail and the railways are not coming to the table. They're not participating in the process. What is required of them under the Ontario Drainage Act is to pay their fair share of costs associated with municipal drains. They seem to think they're above provincial law because they're a federally regulated entity. They don't think they need to pay their fair share.

The challenge we have is that rural municipalities, like those in Perth County, seem to be stuck footing the bill rather than the national railways.

What is Transport Canada doing to ensure that the railways pay their fair share of the municipal drain projects?

[Stephanie Hébert]

Mr. Chair, I can't speak to the specific case that was presented, but through our funding support programs, like the national trade corridors fund, we're able to bring a variety of partners to the table to address critical infrastructure problems. Our funding through this program is more about the transportation system, the transportation infrastructure and the supply chain corridors.

The municipal drains that you're speaking about would more likely involve some of my colleagues at Infrastructure Canada and the work they do in that space. We seek to bring people to the table to address these types of problems as they pertain to the transportation system and as they pertain to the supply chain.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I think the issue is that the railways are not coming to the table with municipalities to pay their fair share, so it's not an infrastructure issue. Municipalities are undertaking these municipal drain projects. The farmers through whose property the drains traverse are paying their fair share. The municipality or the county, depending on the case, is paying its fair share, and then the municipalities are stuck footing the bill for the railways' share because they're refusing to pay. They're refusing to come to the table.

This is really an issue of ensuring that the federal government ensures that the railways, which are, of course, federally regulated, comply with their obligations under the Ontario Drainage Act.

I would like to know what tools Transport Canada has. I know municipalities met with the former minister of transport in the past. What tools will the federal government be using through Transport Canada to ensure that the railways pay their fair share?

[Stephanie Hébert]

Mr. Chair, what I would offer is.... Just given my accountability, I'm happy to speak to our funding support programs, but if the committee would like, I would be happy to work with officials to follow up with the committee and answer this question in writing. It just exceeds my area of authority.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. We'll look forward to that.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I appreciate that. I would be interested in that and eager to hear a follow-up specifically on the municipal drainage issue.

Turning now briefly to the report, exhibit 4.6 talks about “incomplete or missing” performance measures. It breaks them down by national projects and then, specifically, Arctic and northern projects. I would say it's pretty concerning that only 5% of northern or Arctic projects had a complete performance measurement strategy in place, and the remaining 95% of those projects that the Auditor General's office studied had some form of incomplete information, whether it was indicators, the target or the baseline.

I'm curious to know, in the immediate term, since you've had this report, if any of that additional information has been found. Has that been brought to light to try to reassure folks that there are actual measurements being taken for these Arctic and northern projects, which I would say are especially important for northern communities?

[Stephanie Hébert]

Very briefly, yes, we have those indicators. We track those projects.

Since we have the report, I can tell the committee that those indicators are now reflected in over 45 agreements. We have set a target of making sure that overall, for all the projects—not just for the Arctic projects—we do the same. There are 80 agreements that we are targeting.

I can turn to my colleague to supplement this in terms of the Arctic-specific projects you mentioned.

[Joshua LaRocque]

Thanks, Stephanie.

Thanks for the question.

I think that's partially because the Arctic and northern calls occurred longer ago than the most recent calls, for which the performance measures were already included. However, as Stephanie has said, our commitment is to work with those recipients whose projects are ongoing to include the performance indicators.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Up next is Mr. Sorbara.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to welcome the officials to the committee.

On the national trade corridors fund, I'll bring this full circle. We all come from different regions of the country. The region that I was blessed to be born and raised in is the north coast of British Columbia. I'm from the wonderful port city of Prince Rupert.

I have many friends who still work there at the container port in the capacity of longshoremen and so forth. My understanding today is that the Infrastructure Bank—there's a story in The Globe and Mail—has made a $150-million investment in the container port. That $150-million investment was announced as part of a larger $750-million expansion of the port of Prince Rupert, and it's great to see. Those are really good, high-paying jobs. We know international trade draws and creates jobs that pay above average and have great benefits and futures for Canadians, which is great to see.

I know people have asked a lot of questions on certain details, but if we take a step back and think about the billions the government has chosen to invest in Canadian infrastructure and in Canadians, and the confidence it's demonstrated in doing so, how important is a program like the national trade corridors fund to that? I will say the port of Prince Rupert has a three-day quicker shipping time to the ports of Asia than Long Beach, Seattle and Vancouver.

Let me throw that out there. Whoever wishes to answer that first may do so.

[Stephanie Hébert]

I'll build on that point, Mr. Chair.

The program is very important. We have also made some very strategic investments, specifically in parts of the country that I would say are more remote or rural.

I would be happy to turn to my colleague, who can talk about some of the projects we are funding in the port of Prince Rupert, working in collaboration with the port authority as well as the province.

What I would say is that, in terms of some of those more rural and remote ones, we've invested $1.6 billion in funding and have been able to leverage $3.4 billion. As you noted, it's resulted in the safe, reliable and efficient movement of goods in and out of Canada. You provided a great statistic in terms of the downtime that has subsequently been reduced. It definitely supports the creation of quality jobs and regional economic development.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Before Joshua comments—I do want to hear your comments, Joshua—it's even more important in the sense that the port of Prince Rupert is attached to the CN rail line, which literally goes from Prince Rupert all the way to the city of Vaughan and the MacMillan yard. The MacMillan yard is the largest facility CN has in the entire country, if I'm not mistaken. I stand to be corrected, but I think it's the MacMillan yard. We also have the CPKC intermodal facility located in my riding. It is so interconnected, because the MacMillan yard is literally the feeder for CN's routes across North America.

Joshua, can you comment on the investments, please?

[Joshua LaRocque]

Thank you for the question.

Maybe I'll work quickly through the Ridley Island export logistics platform project that was funded at the Prince Rupert Port Authority. That's about a $50-million project that will have significant economic benefits, alleviate some congestion and increase the capacity at the port.

For example, this project in particular is likely to accommodate the forecasted growth in transloading activity and will increase the TEU—20-foot equivalent units—capacity at the port from 28,400 TEUs to an estimated 536,000 TEUs. That's a big increase and speaks to the power of the program and its impact.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Of course.

I have to get this on the record regarding the Ridley Island coal and grain terminal. About 33 years ago, I got to spend four summers of my university life working at that grain facility. It was a wonderful facility and wonderful experience.

Chair, is that all the time?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have 30 seconds.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

If there are any other comments you'd like to make, Stephanie, on the national trade corridors fund, I'll leave it to you. You can use up those last 20 seconds.

[Stephanie Hébert]

In the case of Prince Rupert, one of the things I would like to emphasize is the involvement of indigenous partners. This is something we seek to encourage. Oftentimes, there are benefit agreements that can accrue from various projects. There's the opportunity to participate in some of the project activities. We have an example in the port of Prince Rupert, where the Metlakatla are actively participating. You can also see how reconciliation and participation are being advanced.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Next up, again, is Mr. Muys.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

This is directed to the Office of the Auditor General.

My understanding is that the audit included on-site visits for ongoing projects and completed projects. What did you see there that helped inform the overall conclusions of the audit? Where were the gaps, and what remedies...?

[Andrew Hayes]

To talk about our on-site visits, I'll ask Mr. Normand to provide some details.

What I would say is that, in most of our audits, we try to make on-site visits to understand the realities that are faced.

[David Normand, Principal, Office of the Auditor General]

Thank you for the question.

Initially, during our audit, we visited a few infrastructure projects in Calgary and Edmonton to see the status of completion and the impact this infrastructure would be having on the fluidity and resilience of the transportation system.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

I'll turn back to the Department of Transport.

We talked about trade corridors. You talked about fostering interconnectivity and multimodal.... Obviously, highways and roads are important parts of that trade infrastructure. Certainly, in my area, the border crossings at Niagara are not far, just down the 401. Of course, there are the border crossings at Windsor and Detroit. We know the vast majority of Canadian trade, and a very sizable chunk of our Canadian economy, rolls across those border points by truck.

We know that, back in February or March, the radical Minister of Environment and Climate Change said the quiet part out loud, that there's a new no roads policy in the government. That has been, of course, the case for some time. We know from Global News that department officials at Infrastructure Canada were shocked to learn this and were sent scrambling. Those emails were reported on.

What was your reaction at Transport Canada? Were you alarmed or concerned?

[Stephanie Hébert]

Mr. Chair, what I can say is that we recognize, through the national trade corridors fund, that road infrastructure is a critical component of Canada's transportation system. It really plays a vital role in the movement of goods. That's why you have seen that we have funded, through the program, over 42 projects that are road-specific. That represents a billion dollars in investment through the national trade corridors fund.

We think these projects are really important in terms of the twinning of highways and the building of interchanges, on ramps, underpasses and overpasses. It really allows for safe transportation on roads and the safe movement of goods.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

How much of that is going to the 400 series highways in Ontario where the bulk of the trade is happening? We know that gridlock is the biggest impediment to trade in Ontario.

[Stephanie Hébert]

Mr. Chair, with that level of detail, I would have to get back to the committee.

I could cite different project examples, but I don't have that readily available to be able to respond to the committee at this moment.