Evidence of meeting #126 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was kpmg.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Partner, Cybersecurity, KPMG
Generally, what would happen after those types of meetings is that I debriefed my management team.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
5:05 p.m.
Partner, Cybersecurity, KPMG
Debriefs could have occurred in writing or in person for this particular meeting.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
That is your time, Mr. Desjarlais. You will have another slot.
I'm going to turn now to Mr. Barrett for five minutes.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Mr. Bashir, you worked at the Treasury Board, then went to this large Canadian company, an accounting firm. When you were with the Treasury Board, how many times did you hear stories of companies like KPMG being sent work through a subcontract, through two-person, no-value-add firms? It's extraordinary. I've talked to, at these tables, a lot of folks, and the two-person scenario is an outlier.
How many times did you hear about that?
5:05 p.m.
Partner, Cybersecurity, KPMG
I don't know the number of employees of every company, for sure, but I would say it wasn't uncommon to see subcontracting relationships between companies of all sizes.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
You met with 50% of the employees of this company in a government lobby. You mentioned that much. We know they were even able to write their own contract. There seem to be all kinds of exceptions around this two-person company, GC Strategies.
How many times has KPMG, to your knowledge, been allowed to write a contract and then be the beneficiary of that contract, be the supplier?
5:05 p.m.
Partner, Cybersecurity, KPMG
I'm not aware of any times we wrote our own contracts. It's strictly forbidden.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
It's forbidden, but it seems as if, again, there were these exceptions with GC Strategies.
Were you a director general?
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Did you do a quick search to see if the individual you were meeting with, Mr. Firth, was registered to lobby before you met with him?
5:05 p.m.
Partner, Cybersecurity, KPMG
I don't recall the details of that meeting. I couldn't give you an exact answer.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Were you in the habit of meeting with lobbyists?
5:05 p.m.
Partner, Cybersecurity, KPMG
No, we were not permitted to meet with lobbyists.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
If you didn't check to see if he was a lobbyist, how would you know whether or not you were meeting with someone you were allowed to meet with?
5:10 p.m.
Partner, Cybersecurity, KPMG
I'm saying me personally. I don't know. My staff may have checked on my behalf as well.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
I have to tell you, absent more of the details, it just seems like you have a bit of a soft spot for Mr. Firth. I don't know how he was able to get this access to you. I don't understand how you would be directed, on behalf of KPMG, to subcontract for the same guy who got this access to you, who was lobbying as an unregistered lobbyist. Your paths seemed to cross. You say, “Well, you know, it kind of all worked out, and it seems like it was okay.”
I think it's demonstrably not okay. This company has been engaged in all kinds of conduct that's not acceptable for any other vendor. It's obviously not of value to Canadians, the way this was carried out.
How many hours of programming or cybersecurity work did Kristian Firth and GC Strategies do on the contract with KPMG for ArriveCAN? How many hours was it?
5:10 p.m.
Partner, Cybersecurity, KPMG
On my specific contract, they were not involved in my delivery.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
They weren't involved.
5:10 p.m.
Partner, Cybersecurity, KPMG
I cannot speak to what Mr. Utano and Mr. Firth did afterwards, but specific to the delivery of—
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
I gather that they probably went out for a steak and a beer. That seems to be the pattern here. They went out for dinners, collected 30% commissions and then had someone else do the work and said, “Well, these guys are IT professionals,” but they didn't do any IT work.
How much exactly was KPMG paid through their subcontract with GC Strategies for the work on ArriveCAN?
5:10 p.m.
Partner, Cybersecurity, KPMG
As I stated earlier, the two task authorizations totalled an amount of $400,000.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Do you know how much GC Strategies billed for that work?
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
We know that GC Strategies billed the government $452,000 for your work, and that's on the low end. That is a pretty good payday, $52,000 for doing no value-added work. A senior government official facilitated it all. We know that you had that exploratory meeting with GC Strategies and Mr. Firth, and then were directed to work with GC Strategies.
At what point did you leave the government to become a consultant for KPMG, or an employee of KPMG?
