Public Accounts Committee on June 4th, 2024

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I appreciate that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

In the next two rounds, to keep us on time, I'm going to reduce the government and the official opposition to four minutes and the other two parties to two minutes. I've been allowing answers to go over. Everyone really had an extra minute in that last turn, but I do want to make sure we get a full two rounds in.

Mr. Stewart, you have the floor for four minutes, please.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here today.

Being from Miramichi—Grand Lake in New Brunswick, living within the Mi'kmaq ancestral region, I would prefer the questions be answered by Chief Mitchell or Chief Peters, but I'm also open to having anybody else answer the same point.

It's unfortunate the subject matter today is how Indigenous Services Canada and the CMHC have poorly managed housing conditions in first nations communities.

As a former minister of aboriginal affairs in New Brunswick, as you can imagine, I saw this up close and personal for about a two-year period when I was minister.

I'll repeat what I said to the Auditor General when she first presented her reports on “Housing in First Nations Communities”, and I'll comment on the work of Canada's first female auditor general, Sheila Fraser.

In her farewell speech, Madam Fraser criticized as “truly shocking” the lack of improvements on first nations reserves. She also said, “I actually think it's quite tragic when you see that there is a population in this country that does not have the sort of basic services that Canadians take for granted.”

The recent Office of the Auditor General report, “Housing in First Nations Communities”, shows lots of similarities to former auditor Fraser's comments. It's very unfortunate to see a complete lack of progress over the past nine years.

According to the Office of the Auditor General, Indigenous Services Canada and CMHC do not have a strategy to support first nations in closing the housing gap by 2030. Even worse, according to the office, the housing gap will keep growing.

I'm thinking of something here today, and I'm going to mention it, because I think it's important. With everything that's just been said, we talk a lot about housing and home ownership and how in the future young people in Canada, in general, will have a very difficult time owning their first home. Although we're not here to debate the Indian Act, and there could be positives and negatives seen both ways on that act, I want to say this. Sometimes we forget that first nations and indigenous people are essentially robbed of a sense of pride and accomplishment that actually comes with home ownership, because of some of the sections of that act. Although it may not apply to every single indigenous person today, it's still a fair number of them, as I can understand from earlier deliberations.

I would like to ask your opinion here. I can imagine how we got here. We're always talking about building capacity. I remember a situation in a Mi'kmaq community in New Brunswick where the chief asked me to visit, and I went down and visited the community. I found this house, and it was full of mould, and there were 16 or 17 people living there. There should never have been that many people living there, number one. The house had poor ventilation. It was black mould. I'm an asthmatic, so as soon as I walked in, I knew, because I could hardly breathe.

The chief of the community and the band at the time couldn't afford to fix that mould problem. As I understood it, there were far more problems than just the unit that I witnessed up close and personal, if you will. The family that was living in the unit also didn't have the ability or the resources to fix the problem. There was a wooden basement under this house, as someone said earlier. It was a house that was probably only 30 years old, but it was literally falling apart.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Stewart, you have about 30 seconds left.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Okay.

I'm just wondering, with the mould problem, if you are seeing any improvement whatsoever. By the look of the report, it doesn't look like there has been any improvement.

Thank you.

[Regional Chief Brendan Mitchell]

Thank you.

If I may begin, the Auditor General's report did indicate mould as one of the key problems as she saw it, but we know that in our communities throughout this country, particularly in the north and particularly in remote communities, mould is still an ongoing problem that people are living with every day. It's impacting their lives and their breathing. As you mentioned, you're asthmatic and you felt it right away when you went into this house.

That's a basic that needs to be taken care of and addressed. I don't think it has been to the extent that we need it.

What will it take to fix this? Well, it will take community leadership speaking up, as number one. It will take a collaborative plan between the community and others—government, provincial, federal or whatever—to try to help get this situation rectified.

It is a problem, as you mentioned, and it's not going away. It hasn't improved. Maybe it has gotten worse. It has worsened over the last, say, decade, instead of improving overall.

Again, it's all part of the overall housing problem that we have in the indigenous communities in this country. There's a lot of work that needs to be done in this entire area.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Up next is Mrs. Shanahan.

You have the floor for about four minutes, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair. I, too, want to thank the witnesses for being here today.

It's very sobering to hear. Really, it's sort of the state of the nation across the nation for first nations.

Being from Quebec, I would like to ask Chief Haymond for more information about the organization Yänonhchia'. I'm sorry to say that this is the first that I'm really hearing about it, so I would like to learn more about how that organization is basically changing the housing ecosystem for first nations clients.

[Chief Lance Haymond]

I can speak. I have a couple of key points.

Yänonhchia' is the brainchild of the community of Wendake, which many years ago saw that social housing funding was not meeting its needs. They started to look for and create a new solution. Because of the restrictions of the Indian Act, they had to use internal resources. They chose to use the indigenous financial institution, the NACCA network, as the mechanism to deliver housing in Quebec.

Yänonhchia' housing finance builds on a network of experienced IFIs. Housing outside of reserve presents one of Canada's most important economic drivers, and Yänonhchia' proposes to make this a reality on reserve as well. Increased construction and renovation activity for private home ownership will yield important economic benefits for first nations.

As I mentioned previously, because of the restrictions of the Indian Act, Yänonhchia' is different from other lending programs. It builds on individual financial and credit strength to provide housing finance without requesting that the first nation or the government, through ISC's ministerial loan guarantee program, guarantee these loans.

It's not a panacea. As I mentioned earlier, with the current level of funding, probably in the range of 60% of our housing needs are not currently being met by any government funding. We believe that through the work with Yänonhchia' and private home ownership, upwards of 20% of our housing needs can be addressed.

Simply, the success we have achieved in Quebec we have done with no government funding. We have raised it through the sale of bonds and people's individual savings, plus some assistance from private foundations like McConnell, which have invested money—$28 million in total—with the first nations, so that we could have this program available on reserve for our members.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much for that.

Do you think that if first nations had access to other financing options, including the private sector...? Is Yänonhchia' the beginning of something really innovative that could grow?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

Absolutely. That's what we've been doing for the last years. We've been actively advocating and lobbying the federal government for the necessary capital to make this a national initiative. The interest is there, and the IFI network is ready, willing and able to do it. We simply need a capital investment to be able to launch this program nationally.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you. I think that's where the federal government needs to be there with you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Ms. Shanahan.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for two minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We often talk about truth and reconciliation.

When it comes to matters of truth, what I see when I read the Auditor General’s report is that Indigenous Services Canada recognizes First Nations housing needs and, according to the Assembly of First Nations’ numbers, there is a $44 billion shortfall. That’s the amount needed to build 55,320 new housing units to counter overpopulation, build 78,000 new housing units for people returning to communities, repair over 80,000 existing housing units and make 112,000 new plots viable. So, there’s the truth.

Then, in order to have reconciliation, at the very least, there obviously has to be a dialogue.

Chief Haymond, currently, what is the state of the dialogue with the federal government on housing issues?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

Well, the present situation is not exactly working for first nations. CMHC and Indigenous Services Canada determine the level of funding and the distribution model that goes to regions and communities. Because they have the vast majority of control over housing programs, at the end of the day we are asked to do whatever we can with the funding we receive.

As every witness, including me, is telling you, the funding has been chronically low and underfunded for years, so it will take a massive investment. However, I think the days of ISC and CMHC telling first nations how, when and under what circumstances we can meet our needs are gone. I think what we're really and truly asking for, especially through the work that's been done by the Assembly of First Nations, is for the government to sit down with us so that we can find solutions. Definitely government funding is a part of it, but there also has to be some give-and-take from conventional financial institutions. I think the private sector has a role to play as well.

You can't find solutions unless you're sitting down and having the conversation. The days of folks at CMHC sitting in their offices at 700 Montreal Road and deciding what's in our best interests are gone. They need to sit down and have those conversations with us.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Meegwetch

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Next up is Mr. Desjarlais for two minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'll return to Grand Chief Cody Thomas.

In relation to your most recent discussion with the Minister of Indigenous Services Canada, Ms. Patty Hajdu, what have your discussions been, and what are your priorities?

[Grand Chief Cody Thomas]

The discussion has been around clean and safe drinking water, but I think even with that last question that was being discussed about CMHC, the points system they have in place is pretty unfair. When we asked if there was a mechanism to appeal that process, they said they didn't have anything in place.

I'm just speaking to the rapid housing initiative. I agree with the other chiefs that the system that's in place doesn't know us as indigenous people and how to meet our needs. We're not children. I think the approach that's been taken from decades of hardship needs to be revisited. I think there are some good things we can work off, but being at the table to find those solutions is definitely something that's on the right path.

With Patty, it's more around the drinking water aspect. Nothing's really been introduced. The chiefs are very hesitant on some of those dialogues. Unfortunately, we have to find a solution at the end of the day.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I appreciate that. I know that my team is working with your team on that. Tomorrow it will be tabled for second reading, I believe, so I'll be speaking to it. I know that your team has reached out. We'll follow up on that tomorrow.

To go back to some of the housing items, have you submitted an application for housing funding, not just for Enoch but for other Treaty 6 organizations? As well, what is a better relationship that we can advocate for here in Ottawa to make certain that the paternalistic relationship that exists between first nations and the government ends?

[Grand Chief Cody Thomas]

I think it's about coming up with a better formula, when it comes to building within the municipality, for all of us in Treaty No. 6. It's not just about apartment buildings. Our children don't want to grow up in apartment buildings.

There are some unique initiatives that we've been working on with our province and the City of Edmonton, but we're finding financial shortfalls to look at building a multi-purpose housing project for the indigenous peoples of our traditional territories here within Treaty No. 6.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Desjarlais. I'm going to try to give you another chance.

I'll turn it over to Mr. Nater.

You have the floor for four minutes.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Through you, Chair, thank you to the witnesses for joining us today for this conversation.

I want to turn to a part of the Auditor General's report that I found concerning. This has been touched on a few times.

It says:

Small communities with the poorest housing conditions were approved for less targeted funding from 2018-19 to 2022-23 than small communities with better housing conditions

This is obviously counter to what you would expect to see. You would expect to see communities with the highest need targeted for funding. Obviously, that's concerning, and I think most people would agree with that.

What I found equally concerning was the fact that the CMHC and Indigenous Services Canada only partially accepted that concern.

The Auditor General said, at the time:

We are concerned that Indigenous Services Canada and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation only partially agreed with our recommendation that they work with communities with the poorest housing conditions to ensure that they receive the support they need to improve housing conditions.

The deputy minister at the time said they only partially accepted the AG's recommendation because they didn't agree with the methodology the AG used to come to the conclusion. We can quibble about methodology all we want, but the reality is that this is what's happening on the ground.

I want to put the question to, frankly, all of the witnesses, but I'll start with Chief Mitchell and Chief Haymond, who are in the room.

First, can you confirm that what you're seeing on the ground is, in fact, that the funding we're talking about for those indigenous communities most in need isn't getting there? What should we be doing? Should we not be insisting that the CMHC and Indigenous Services Canada remedy this, rather than quibbling about the methodology of the Auditor General?

I'll put that to all four of the witnesses.

[Regional Chief Brendan Mitchell]

First of all, thank you for your question and comment.

On the ground, I'm not sure I can confirm what the Auditor General is stating here. I really don't know if that's the case. In many situations, whether it's in communities or in a government relationship with somebody, politics comes into play. I can't confirm that what's being suggested by the Auditor General is in fact true.

What I'd like to do right now is turn to Chief Haymond, who may have some specific awareness or experience with this situation.

[Chief Lance Haymond]

I tend to agree. The bigger challenge, quite frankly, is that most of these initiatives are proposal-driven, except for regular, recurring funding through legacy programs, where it is not required. Rapid housing or any of these new initiatives are proposal-driven, so all first nations across the country are eligible.

You touched on one of the most important challenges: Those with the greatest need have the least capacity. Those who have less need have the greatest capacity and the ability to submit fulsome proposals within the time frames and meet all the conditions and criteria to be assessed. At the end of the day, it appears that lesser-capacity first nations are getting less of the national budget. That is part of the reality. If you're a small community, you don't have good capacity and good people, or the ability to retain, hire and keep these people. It's your more urban, sophisticated communities with access to consultants, lawyers and a host of other support services that are able to get proposals in.

That is part of the challenge for all first nations across the board.