Public Accounts Committee on June 4th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. I appreciate your understanding.

Grand Chief Thomas, you have the floor for about five minutes, please.

[Grand Chief Cody Thomas]

[Witness spoke in Cree]

[English]

Good afternoon, esteemed members of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. My name is Grand Chief Cody Thomas. I'm the Grand Chief of the Confederacy of Treaty Six First Nations and the Chief of Enoch Cree Nation.

I'm speaking to you today from my home in Enoch Cree Nation, located within Treaty 6 territory.

First off, I apologize, but I do need to acknowledge the opening prayer, and I do need to be thankful to the Creator for the opening day of our life, the life we're given today. I want to thank the Creator and acknowledge the opening prayer.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today about a matter of critical importance to first nations communities: housing as a fundamental right.

I'm hoping to be blunt with my remarks today, starting with the fact that housing is a fundamental human and treaty right, yet for many first nations communities this is not a reality. Sixty per cent of unhoused people suffering on the streets of Edmonton are indigenous. There is a total lack of housing available to first nations people on and off reserve. We are in a crisis, and we need more support now.

The cycle of inadequate housing, inadequate funding, overcrowding and homelessness continues to plague our people, compounding issues related to health, education and overall well-being. It is critical to understand that housing is not just about having a roof over one's head. It is about creating a continuum of housing opportunities and building safe, stable environments in which individual families can thrive.

The housing crisis in first nations communities is rooted in several issues. Many homes are in despair and lack basic amenities such as clean water and proper sanitation. Overcrowding is rampant, leading to conditions that are harmful to physical and mental health. There is mould in our homes. Furthermore, the lack of adequate housing often forces our members into urban centres, where they face additional challenges related to discrimination, unemployment and access to services, not to mention the rising rental costs facing everyone in our cities today.

To say that our nations are funded inadequately to address these challenges is a massive understatement. Enoch Cree Nation, for example, receives $184,000 in funding each year to build new housing for our members, yet we have 500 families on our waiting list. In discussing this with our Treaty 6 chiefs, I have heard about similar funding amounts for their nations, while thousands of additional families across Treaty 6, across the confederacy, are in need of housing. This is woefully inadequate to address the housing needs of our people. How are we expected to provide safety and security to our people with that level of funding?

The recent Auditor General report confirms our concerns as chiefs. The AG report stated that there has been “no meaningful improvement in housing” since this government took power in 2015. We have seen no meaningful progress to address the first nation housing gap. In 2021, the AFN estimated the gap to be at $44 billion, and we know that in 2024 the number is much higher, perhaps as high as $60 billion in reality. We know also that CMHC has been relying on 2001 census data, denying first nations in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba over $250 million in funding that we are all entitled to.

We watch as organizations with national scope are presented as offering solutions to our people, yet we do not see any Albertan first nation representation on these bodies.

In terms of health and well-being, what does all of this mean for our people? There is a direct link between housing and health. Poor housing conditions contribute to the prevalence of respiratory illness, infectious diseases and mental health issues. The stress and instability associated with inadequate housing can also lead to higher rates of substance abuse and domestic violence. Addressing the housing crisis is not just a matter of infrastructure. It is also a critical step towards improving the overall health and well-being of our communities.

We have arrived at a critical juncture, where it will take a united commitment to address these challenges, a commitment from all orders of government to work together alongside first nations. Temporary solutions are no longer sufficient. We need more transformative, lasting approaches that address the root cause of housing instability. Achieving this will require collaboration between first nations and municipal, provincial and federal governments; and between private and non-private sectors.

What solutions do we propose?

We need to invest in sustainable housing projects. We need investments in building new energy-efficient homes that meet the cultural and environmental needs of our communities. These projects should prioritize local employment and training opportunities, empowering our people to be part of the solution. These projects should recognize our limited land bases and support both on- and off-reserve housing construction.

We need to renovate existing infrastructure. Many existing homes need urgent repairs and upgrades. Programs that provide funding and resources for renovations can help improve living conditions and extend the lifespan of current housing stock.

We need support for mental health and addictions services. Housing initiatives must be integrated in comprehensive support services, including mental health and addictions services. Providing these services within the community helps ensure that individuals have the stability they need to recover and thrive.

We need long-term funding and policy commitments. Addressing the housing crisis requires long-term, sustainable funding and policy commitments. This includes ensuring that funding mechanisms are flexible and responsive to the unique needs of first nations communities, and that the bodies in charge of this funding include representation from our people, not individuals who claim to speak for us.

In closing, I urge this committee and the broader government to engage in constructive dialogue with first nation leaders and our technicians. By working together, we can develop a comprehensive, collaborative action plan that ensures that every member of our community has access to safe, adequate and affordable housing. This is not just a housing issue. It is a step towards reconciliation and a more equal future for all.

Thank you for your time and attention. I'm happy to answer any questions that committee members might have about the reality of housing for Treaty Six First Nations.

Hay hay.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Finally, we'll turn to Chief Peters.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Chief Sidney Peters]

My name, of course, is Chief Sidney Peters. I'm from the Glooscap First Nation. I'm also the co-chair for the Assembly of Nova Scotia Mi’kmaw Chiefs. I also sit on the chiefs' committee on housing and infrastructure, representing the Atlantic through the Atlantic Policy Congress.

I just wanted to say it's nice to be here and to listen to my colleagues. Some of the stuff I have to say might be the same as what everybody else has said, but I think it's important that we understand this.

As we know, on March 19, 2024, the Auditor General of Canada released the second report of 2024 for the Parliament of Canada on housing in first nations communities. Many people living in our first nations communities do not have access to housing that is safe and in good condition, which is a fundamental right. Improving housing in first nations is vital for the physical, mental and economic well-being of all our first nations people in Canada.

This is the fourth time since 2003 that the Auditor General has raised concerns about the housing in first nations communities. However, despite the findings of each of these audits and the recommendations made, Indigenous Services Canada and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation have failed to make significant progress in supporting first nations in improving housing conditions in their communities.

The Government of Canada has made extensive commitments to first nations communities to provide funding for critical infrastructure to improve living conditions. In the Prime Minister's mandate letter to the Minister of Indigenous Services, Patty Hajdu, the government committed to making “immediate and long-term investments to support ongoing work to close the infrastructure gap by 2030”.

The Assembly of First Nations, in partnership with Indigenous Services Canada, has co-developed a comprehensive cost report quantifying the capital and operation costs required to close the infrastructure gap in first nations communities by 2030. The investment needed to close the infrastructure gap by 2030 is $349.2 billion. As a result of the decades of underfunding, a failure of fiduciary duties and the unfair distribution of wealth in Canada, this includes $135.1 billion for housing, $59.5 billion for infrastructure and $55.4 billion in direct asks from first nations.

Given the scale, geographic range, national construction constraints and lack of recent and meaningful government investments, the mandate to close the infrastructure gap by 2030 may not be achievable until the year 2040, which increases the estimated total investment required to $527.9 billion.

The total capital investment required to close the gap in Atlantic Canada is $12.4 billion, with a total operations and maintenance investment of $2.6 billion, for a total investment of $15 billion required to close the gap by 2030 for Atlantic first nations. If no action is taken, the total investment to close the infrastructure gap by 2040 in Atlantic Canada will increase to $24.9 billion.

The housing needs survey was sent out to the housing staff in Atlantic Canada, and 16 of 34 first nations in Atlantic Canada responded to it. The total reported population of the 16 first nations that responded to the survey is 75% of the total registered population of our first nations members in Atlantic Canada. Therefore, this indicates that the data collected during the survey is reflective of what is happening in the entire region.

Atlantic first nations need an estimated 12,799 units to address the backlog in the immediate needs of community members. This number of units will require an investment of $3.4 billion. An additional $158 million is required to make the necessary repairs and renovations in our existing units.

Based on this information, the first nations in Atlantic Canada agree with the Auditor General's report. Without any meaningful investment in housing and infrastructure, particularly with respect to building the capacity of first nations at the grassroots level, the infrastructure gap will only continue to grow. The way the federal government currently does business only benefits those with own-source revenues or with the capacity to apply to programs.

The way government does business only perpetuates the cycle of inequity that continues to make the gap grow rather than shrink. The only way forward is to work together, holding each other accountable and coming up with innovative solutions. The status quo is no longer a viable policy option.

I want to say wela'lin.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I'll now begin our first round of questions. The first four members will have six minutes each.

Mr. Melillo, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank all the witnesses for being here on this important study.

Obviously, we're talking about the Auditor General report about housing on first nations. I think we all know it's quite a scathing report. It highlights a number of failures in the government. It was mentioned earlier that the Auditor General found there's no plan to close this housing gap by 2030. There's been no meaningful improvement in housing conditions since 2015, which is a concern for many Canadians, first nations and non-indigenous people across the country. In fact, the number of homes that needed to be replaced or were found to have deteriorating conditions has actually increased since 2015.

I'll start with the gentlemen in the room here. If anyone has comments, please try to get my attention. Raise your hand or do whatever you need to do.

I'll start with you, Chief Haymond.

I'm curious about whether you can elaborate a bit on what you mentioned in your opening comments. How is this playing out on the ground on first nations, and what does it mean? It's one thing to look at the report and see these numbers. They're staggering. Can you offer some more specific examples that you've heard about and how this is impacting lives on first nations?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

I can give you concrete examples.

We talk about the amount of funding available to build housing in our communities. I think I heard one of the chiefs mention that they're not getting very much funding. In this fiscal year, regarding CMHC funding, Quebec receives 7% of the national budget. Historically, we received 12%. However, in 2001-02, with the adoption of the interim allocation model, Quebec saw its proportional share of the national budget drop to 7%. This fiscal year, CMHC's section 95 program—one of their legacy programs—is going to build a total of 30 units for 43 communities in Quebec. Right off the top, 10 of those units go directly to the Crees, because the Crees have a treaty and get 38% of the regional budget. That leaves 20 units for the 33 communities I represent.

That is a concrete example of chronic underfunding and what it means for first nations in Quebec. Because of that reality, we've had to look at innovative ways to address our housing needs. A number of communities developed Yänonhchia', which is a financial model that allows us to provide mortgages on reserve without ministerial loan guarantees or the band having to guarantee. Currently, first nations are the only jurisdictions in this country that have to guarantee every single loan or mortgage our members make for housing, and we also have to guarantee those mortgages for social housing. Each of these mortgages we guarantee goes against our contingent liability. Many of our communities are in debt with mortgaging for housing, because social housing doesn't meet the needs. Yänonhchia’ is, again, an opportunity for members of our community who are caught between a rock and a hard place. Most government funding is for social housing.

There are individuals in our community who have the capacity and desire to pay and the creditworthiness to do so. Unfortunately, there's no government assistance to help them, so they're caught and left in limbo.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I want to follow up quickly on the program.

Can you explain for the committee how common, or perhaps uncommon, it is for first nations to have that ability to have a mortgage and own property?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

It's very difficult, because section 89 of the Indian Act does not allow for the seizure of property on reserve. Through the innovative process of a tripartite agreement among indigenous financial institutions, the band council and individual homeowner, we have been able to put $28 million in mortgages into the system, which has resulted in over 300 units being built or renovated in first nations communities in Canada.

Now we're seeking the capital to expand the program in Quebec and across the country. Home ownership is not for every first nation, but it absolutely has to be part of the equation going forward. We have creditworthy individuals who want to be able to pay for their housing, and it's unfair that dependency on social housing programs has left us in this particular situation.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I appreciate that, thank you.

I'm going to move on with my limited time to Chief Peters.

I believe, in your opening remarks, you mentioned the construction constraints. I'm interested in digging into that a little more. I know in my region we're rural, remote and northern, so a lot of construction costs are exacerbated. Transportation and things like that, whether it's the carbon tax or other taxes, make construction costs even higher. I'm wondering if you can elaborate on what you meant when you said that there are construction constraints.

[Chief Sidney Peters]

Of course, what's happening here in the Atlantic is that we're not a really big region, but ever since this whole thing came down in regard to how much money is coming down for even off-reserve housing and stuff, we're finding it more and more difficult to get suppliers to get material in, because everybody else is tapping into it; everybody else seems to be going for it. It's the same thing we're finding in regard to tradespeople, trying to get enough tradespeople to actually do the work.

Having said that, the cost over the past few years has substantially increased. As a result, of course, we're not getting as many houses built. Just as Chief Lance said, it's very difficult when you don't have enough dollars to build the units. It's just so expensive that the poor communities don't have that extra money. Some communities do okay—they have own-source revenues to do that—but a lot of them don't have that extra money, and just in terms of resources, getting the material and stuff has been quite difficult here.

Also, there's the timing involved in getting approvals. Again, we always seem to run into winter construction. If we could get the dollars earlier in the year, even committed a year before, to say, “Okay, come April 1, you guys are ready to go”.... It seems like we're always behind the eight ball in getting construction started.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Chief.

We turn now to Ms. Khalid.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today.

I was thinking a lot about this report and its impact and the concerns that the communities have raised, which are very legitimate. I wonder what the intersection is with climate change. I ask this because, over the last year, we had over 420 forest fires. How does that impact housing? How does that impact the living space of communities in areas where, you know...? Being from an urban area myself, I wouldn't even begin to imagine.

Perhaps, Mr. Mitchell, we can start with you, and I would love to hear from everyone on this.

[Regional Chief Brendan Mitchell]

Thank you.

We've had a lot of conversations about climate change in the last number of years, and we see so many conditions changing. The number of natural disasters, for instance, is increasing, but so is the severity of these incidents. If a forest fire, for example, impacts an indigenous community, it can be the case that communities are wiped out. If there's no housing, what do we do?

We've heard from other chiefs today about situations in their own provinces and generally about what's happening in the country. I think climate change will continue to have a big impact on indigenous communities, particularly northern communities or remote communities, where, once a forest fire gets going, what's the likelihood of losing the entire community? It's highly likely, so, yes, that would be an important consideration, for sure, as Chief Peters says, in the cost of housing.

The remoteness of communities makes building housing even more difficult than it would be where you live or where I live, for example. We're seeing housing costs alone and materials go up by 40% since COVID. These are the numbers that are being shared with me. Of course, Chief Peters also referred to the availability of adequate tradespeople or labour. In a smaller community, that situation becomes even worse.

Yes, we are facing a problem in this country with respect to climate change. Just for the record, my view is we're in for one hell of a summer in this country with forest fires. We're seeing it now in every province; we're going to see it in Newfoundland and Labrador, and, of course, British Columbia and some other places in the country are already at it.

When these communities are lost, it makes it very difficult to put back what was there or to put it back better in a reasonable timeline. Climate change will continue to be a contributing factor in the livelihoods and well-being of some of our communities.

Thank you.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I appreciate that.

Mr. Haymond, did you want to add to that?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

I tend to agree with everything that Brendan has mentioned, because our communities are vulnerable. We are isolated away from main societies. Many of our communities don't have road access. Quite frankly, to be honest and to be fair, when the Government of Canada created reserves, they didn't give us the best pieces of land. Many of our communities are already experiencing the consequences of climate change.

I think of many communities who every spring have to worry about their community and their homes being flooded out on a regular basis. That means that these community members are removed from those houses and put in temporary housing, whether it's hotels or other solutions. Some of them wait many years to return, if they get to return at all. Again, there are no additional funds to address these needs, and insurance protection also becomes an issue for us as more and more incidents of climate change and direct impacts on our communities occur.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you for that.

Chief Peters, how do we ensure as a government that we are providing that support based on what is in front of us today?

[Sydney Peters]

I remember talking to developers and stuff in regard to how climate change is making a big difference. As I've often said, it's not very difficult to build a new house or to build subdivisions; it's a pretty easy process.

Having said that, taking into consideration the environment, climate change and what is happening, like here in Nova Scotia with these mass floods that have been happening—and of course we experienced forest fires as well—I think it's important to ensure that we understand and that we have the proper research. The majority of our communities here in the Atlantic are on waterways. As we all know, those were our highways way back when, and a lot of communities were located there. As Lance has mentioned, some of the lands that we have on reserve are not that great.

I think it's important that we do the proper research to understand how climate change truly works. We also have to realize that the building envelope of an actual house needs to change as well. It is changing, but I don't know whether it's changing fast enough. The whole research and education of operating a house needs to change too. I don't believe that we'd be able to provide enough capacity to our local people living in the units to understand how climate change is actually changing the structure of houses and how national building codes need to change to take that into consideration.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I appreciate that.

Chief, if you can, perhaps help us understand how the Government of Canada or Indigenous Services Canada has communicated with you or worked with you to try to figure out what housing looks like, taking into account how climate change is impacting how people are living.

[Chief Sidney Peters]

To be honest with you, I've been working in housing for 38 years. Years ago, through Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, they used to have some training in building capacity within communities. I know Lance knows this as well. They used to have an inspection program whereby they would have native inspector services that Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation would sponsor. That has actually been taken away from us, which is unfortunate, because we were building the capacity of inspections and services within all our communities to ensure that houses are built to the national building code and taking into consideration how things have changed with climate change.

If anything, what has happened, taking away that whole inspection service and building that capacity...and CMHC doesn't even have the capacity. To be honest with you, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation was supposed to be the housing expert in Canada. As Lance has mentioned, with the budget that's coming out, there's no way you're ever going to meet the need. As a result, you have serious issues happening within the communities.

Having said that, for some reason, the government's not listening to us. It's very frustrating. We're getting houses built in some areas—maybe not necessarily to the building code—but we've lost a lot of expertise in the field of first nations. That's only because of some issue in regard to the federal government or Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation saying that it's a liability issue in regard to training the inspectors and having them do the inspections. Honestly, I just think we've gone backwards on that.

Right now, we're depending on municipal inspectors in a lot of our areas—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Excuse me, Chief Peters. I'm going to pause you right there. I appreciate that thorough answer, and I'm sure members will come back to you.

For our witnesses, this is a good time to put in your earpiece for the translation. If you're online, there is a globe on the screen. I think you can hit “English”, and it will come through with the translation. If you're here in the room, please plug in your earpieces.

The floor now goes to Mr. Lemire for six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for that special attention.

Kwe, Chief Haymond. Meegwetch for being here. I’m especially honoured to be able to have this discussion with you.

I will read the start of paragraph 2.18, located in the section of the report outlining findings and recommendations:

We found that Indigenous Services Canada and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation accepted the Assembly of First Nations’ 2021 estimate of the housing gap. However, the department and the corporation did not have a strategy to support First Nations in closing the housing gap by 2030.

Chief Haymond, don’t you think that was an essential opportunity to seize for co-creating a strategy and leveraging indigenous expertise and knowledge that indigenous people have of their territory in order to close the current housing construction gap?

Mr. Chair, I’m told that the video broadcast isn’t working, so it will be a little more difficult for people to follow our proceedings online. Can you make sure everything is working correctly on a technical level?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Very well, I’ll stop the clock while we look into it.

What exactly is the problem, Mr. Lemire?

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

It’s as though the camera didn’t record what I said, so the video of it won’t be broadcast online.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Even if what you said wasn’t projected onto the screen here in the room, I don’t think that means the video won’t be broadcast online.