Public Accounts Committee on June 6th, 2024

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

No, Minister. Minister, I would like you to answer this question. This is your department. You are accountable as the minister. Why is it that those in the most need are receiving the least amount of funding?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

You get to ask the question and I get to answer it. I'm going to turn to Mr. Barbosa for the answer.

[Nelson Barbosa]

Very briefly, we recognize that the housing gap is large. We assessed the same level of data that the Auditor General did. We looked at communities with the poorest housing conditions and how we allocate money. We found that from 2018 to 2023, first nations with the highest need received approximately 39% more funding per capita than communities with other housing and higher housing conditions. We also looked at the metrics that were proposed by the Auditor General, looking at communities with 100 or fewer housing units. We found that, on average, those communities received roughly 50% more funding than communities on the other end of the spectrum.

We don't disagree that the housing need is great. What we have a little bit of concern with is how the metric was portrayed in the report.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I'm sure first nations communities appreciate you quibbling with metrics when there are folks in this country who do not have adequate housing. I'm sure they appreciate you quibbling with metrics.

I want to follow up. Chief Lance Haymond said, “The bigger challenge...is that most of these initiatives are proposal-driven”, so that, “Those with the greatest need have the least capacity” and “lesser-capacity first nations are getting less of the national budget”.

Would you agree with what Chief Haymond said here earlier this week?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I would say, in part, for certain infrastructures, proposal-based infrastructure funding can be very challenging for communities, but I would also say that there are communities where multi-year funding is in place. That does provide the flexibility that Chief Haymond has noted is important.

I will also, MP Nater, encourage you to vote for any measures that increase spending for indigenous priorities. I will note that you voted against them all.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I would also note, Minister, that you have failed to address the actual concerns of folks on the ground in these communities.

In response to Mr. Melillo's question, you said that all funding requirements were to comply with the building code, but the Auditor General found that the department did not have documentation certifying that the projects actually met the building codes. How is it that this lack of documentation exists within your department?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Well, the department works very closely with first nations, as you know, in a true nation-to-nation relationship. We work with first nations to ensure the approach does not follow the colonial history that I would say the former Conservatives were very fond of and perhaps, judging by the line of questions today, would be fond of again, whereby communities are penalized harshly for any perceived infraction of any code.

We work with first nations to support the maintenance of buildings and to ensure that newbuilds are compliant with code, and we'll continue to do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. That's the time.

Ms. Bradford, you have the final five minutes, please.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for joining us today.

Indigenous communities are at the forefront of our fight against climate change. Obviously, it's hard to make long-term plans when your community is forced to evacuate or rebuild every year because of a wildfire or flooding. How big an impact is climate change having on construction timelines and costs? What are you hearing from the first nations partners?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Oh wow. That's actually an emotional question for me, because I've visited with so many communities that have been devastated by either floods or wildfires. In fact, just a few months ago, I was in Skwlax and Lytton First Nation on the west coast, who experienced a devastating wildfire in 2021, I believe it was, and now here we are in 2024 and the new houses are just arriving.

In fact, after a devastating event like that, there is site remediation. There are oftentimes evacuations in a crisis mode, and then long-term evacuations. Those first nations have worked incredibly hard to support members to come back to their communities, often in temporary housing. One community, Lytton First Nation, had temporary mobile units for families so they didn't have to stay so far away from their community for so long as the housing was getting rebuilt.

In fact, oftentimes, and I think this is a real.... I found this very striking. One of the buildings that burned down was an administration building where, in fact, many members had said there were remains of first nations people from time immemorial. Of course, the then colonial government did not listen to or believe in that story of the members. In the remediation process, through archaeological examination, there in fact were a significant number of remains of former members. It takes time to do the archaeological underpinning for any of that kind of work.

In Skwlax, it was truly incredible to see just how fast things are moving with some internal capacity to do all of the civil engineering that is required to work with people at BC Hydro and the many other service providers to hook up electricity. I could go on.

MP Bradford, the last thing I'll say is that climate change is presenting an ongoing and escalating risk to first nations communities, who are often on the front lines of these crises. During wildfire season, my department has a specially trained team of people who can very quickly pivot to emergency management supports. First nations themselves have emergency management coordinators. We've funded increased capacity, but increasingly we're seeing the devastation of climate change wreak havoc on indigenous communities.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay. Along that line, is there any thought of permanently relocating some of these communities to safer areas not so prone to natural disasters such as flooding or fire, so that they don't have to go through this constant turmoil year after year?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Well, I mean, to answer that question, first I have to say that first nations people were put there—

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I know—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

—intentionally out of the way of colonial cities and towns and dispossessed from the land they had inhabited for a very long time. The process of moving community is very emotional. If a community is interested, for example, in the potential of exploring that, of course the Government of Canada, under our leadership, would be supportive of that, and there are communities that have routine and ongoing flooding.

The challenge is where, to be honest, and the challenge is also connection—connection to that land, connection to that.... I just told you the story of remains in the community, where these are remains that could be centuries old. It's not as easy.... I would ask you the same, I suppose. I'm sorry. I forgot your community—

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Actually, the one I'm living in now is Kitchener.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Okay. If Kitchener all of a sudden were uninhabitable, it would be a very emotional thing to contemplate leaving.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I understand. I just wonder—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

What I would say is that it's really important that we do everything in partnership with first nations.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Exactly.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

When a first nation is interested in contemplating something like a relocation, of course, the Government of Canada, I believe, has an obligation to entertain support for that, but I can tell you that those are deeply emotional conversations and thoughts.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Right.

I'm returning to the situation about the importance of self-determination and a nation-led approach and, again, this could apply to this, too.

Where do you see the balance between transferring control to first nations and ensuring that the government is doing its job by proactively supporting the communities, equipping them with the tools they need for success and making sure they are not left on their own or set up to fail?

We look at this with water management and all these different things.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm glad that you spoke about water, because I just got a letter today from the Blackfoot Confederacy, talking about their support for the Bill C-61 legislation that we have just tabled and that will be arriving at INAN committee.

I would just like to read you a statement. They say:

No consultation process will ever be perfect. However, starting over two years ago all First Nations were offered a significant opportunity by Canada to be directly involved in the development of Bill C-61. Our Nations provided extensive legal and historical submissions about our Treaty water rights at the outset of the consultation process. We meet many times with Canada's Bill C-61 team to review and comment on drafts of the legislation and by the time Bill C-61 was introduced in Parliament we were able to get significant changes made including broadening the recognition of our inherent right of self-government to include all aspects of “water” in general—not just drinking water. We also secured the protections in s.15 of the rights of First Nations to sufficient supplies of water, which is critically important in many regions where water scarcity is an issue.

Our general point is that all First Nations had the same opportunity to consult with Canada about Bill C-61 over a period of more than two years. Those consultations were meaningful in our experience and resulted in real and significant improvements to Bill C-61.

To me, that is the approach I think we need to continue to take. It's truly partnership. It's challenging our systems and institutions to share power and to listen to first nations about what they want to see in the governance of not just their community but this country. They are valuable partners.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I'm afraid that is the time. You were well over.

Ms. Wilson, would you be able to provide this to the committee in writing? I would like some more details around why the mould strategy is not being used anymore. I'm struggling to understand what you said about the Treasury Board requirements in terms of spending envelopes and then delivery.

I don't want to ask for an answer now, but if you could get back to the committee, please, with an explanation on how that program was phased out, with a little more specifics and timeline, the committee would appreciate it.

[Gina Wilson]

I'm happy to send the committee a brief.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Mr. Desjarlais, I'm going to need unanimous consent for you to ask a question. We are—