Public Accounts Committee on June 6th, 2024

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have the floor, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll hear you in just one second.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

They are both misrepresenting the evidence of Mr. Yeo. Mr. Yeo—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Chair, I'm sorry; I cannot allow those kinds of comments to stand.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

—presented a donor card, not a membership card—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay, thank you.

All right. Remember the translators.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Absolutely not.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

—from the Conservative Party of Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Brock. You've made your point.

Ms. Khalid, do you have a point of order?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I don't anymore, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay.

Mr. Brock, you have literally a few seconds.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have one question left.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have a few seconds, so no preamble, please. Just ask the question.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

How many millions of taxpayer funds have been shovelled to consultants working out of their basement?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

We don't shovel taxpayer dollars anywhere.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

How much has been paid out to consultants working out of their basements?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Brock, your time is up. I heard a response from the Minister.

I'm going to move to Ms. Shanahan for five minutes, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Moving to the topic at hand, Minister, you mentioned in your opening statement that some new actions around conflict of interest declaration and compliance processes have been put in place for new hires.

Can you or your officials provide us with more details on when those measures will be rolled out across the department?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

It's happening right now. On the training for our public officials, for example, for the people we already have, I'm being told that the answer to this is on tab four. The processes are all being applied. They're being rolled out this month right across the board. We've already begun training for our people to make sure they're aware of the new rules, and the expectation and the mandatory affirmation requirement is going to be part of all future letters of offer. We've put those measures in place now.

The work was done very quickly by the department, because they have had the benefit of the Auditor General's recommendations. I think they've responded quite appropriately to make sure that not only are we maintaining high ethical standards in these procurement processes, but it can be done transparently to be able to assure Canadians that we're being careful with their money.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much for that, Minister.

I think all members of this committee were definitely seized with the issue of conflict of interest as we understood it. From the testimony that we heard, it was still common practice for members, including members of the Canadian Armed Forces, to do work in a private capacity as well as still work for the CAF. Certainly, the very disturbing testimony that we heard from Mr. Yeo on so many different levels really shone a light on these practices and that they need to be tightened up.

You say that these measures apply to CAF members and, in an earlier answer, you referred to reservists. Could we have some clarity around supervision or monitoring, if you will? I understand that it can be quite fluid, how members move in and out of the CAF and the reserve forces.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

It can be. We're really talking about making sure that those who are in a position of, for example, applying for contracts or approving contracts understand the rules around conflict of interest. I think that's critically important.

By the way, you asked for a date. In May we sent out a new questionnaire to 292 of our procurement members within the materiel group, under Mr. Crosby's leadership, to make sure they're aware of the new requirements and new procedures.

It's not unusual, for example, for members of the Canadian Armed Forces, particularly those who are serving in our reserves, to have other lines of employment. It's the nature of employment these days. Many people have a number of different occupations.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Minister, would that be because they have different specialties or expertise?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

That is possible, but what is never negotiable is where a conflict of interest exists. Where someone may be in a decision-making position with respect to a contract, they should declare their conflict very clearly up front. Obviously, with Mr. Yeo, we had a circumstance where that was not followed and that was not done.

Therefore, we put some additional processes in place. For example, we're putting six questions to every new hire about any potential conflict, not only for themselves, but for family members or any element of their occupation. If the answer is yes to any of those, that then triggers a next round of steps.

It is the responsibility of the employee to declare a conflict, but we're making sure they have all the information they require in the department to make good decisions with respect to managing the risk of any conflict. Some of those conflicts can be mitigated; some of them have to be screened, and some of them would require a complete prohibition of the person from having any engagement in these matters.

We need to get that information from them, and we are prepared to take the steps. I think it's really important that we be able to demonstrate that we are acting quickly to respond to the concerns the Auditor General has raised with us.

As well, I think there's some very important work taking place at Treasury Board. Our department is part of that, but we're not the sole part of it. The government, through the Treasury Board, is also enacting a number of really important measures to ensure the integrity and transparency of all of our procurement processes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you for that, Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm afraid that is the time. Thank you very much.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.