Public Accounts Committee on June 11th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Good afternoon, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 130 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I'd ask all members and other in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents.

Only use the approved, black earpiece, which is in front of you. Please keep your earpiece away from all microphones at all times. This is especially important today because of the close proximity of some of the witnesses. When you're not using the earpiece, please place it face down on the sticker on the table for this purpose.

I will remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is undertaking the consideration of Report 6 from the 2023 reports 6 to 10 of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development entitled “Canadian Net‑Zero Emissions Accountability Act—2030 Emissions Reduction Plan”, referred to the committee on Tuesday, November 7, 2023.

I would like to welcome all of our witnesses.

From the Office of the Auditor General, we have Jerry V. DeMarco, commissioner of the environment and sustainable development; Kimberley Leach, principal; and Mathieu Lequain, principal.

It's nice to have you in today.

From the Department of the Environment, we have Jean-François Tremblay, deputy minister; Vincent Ngan, assistant deputy minister, climate change branch; and John Moffet, assistant deputy minister.

From the Privy Council Office, we have Alexis Conrad, associate secretary to the cabinet, economic and regional development policy.

Each organization will have an opening statement. Although we are starting late, I think we're going to proceed with that.

Mr. DeMarco, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Jerry V. DeMarco, Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We're happy to appear before your committee to discuss our November 2023 report on the 2030 emissions reduction plan, which was developed by Environment and Climate Change Canada under the Canadian Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act.

I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

With me today is Kimberley Leach, who was responsible for the audit. Also with me today is Mathieu Lequain, who was responsible for the 2024 net-zero accelerator audit, which I understand is also of interest to the committee.

Emissions in Canada are higher today than when this country and the world first committed to fighting climate change at the United Nations Earth Summit more than 30 years ago. Plans have come and gone, and Canada has yet to meet any of its targets. Meanwhile, the need to reverse the trend on Canada's greenhouse gas emissions has grown only more pressing. This is not my first time sounding this alarm, and I will continue to do so until Canada turns the tide.

While we were not required to begin reporting on the implementation of the 2030 emissions reduction plan until the end of 2024, we decided to move more quickly, given the urgency of climate change. Overall, we found that the plan was insufficient to meet Canada's target to reduce emissions by 40% to 45% below the 2005 level by 2030. We found that measures needed to meet the 2030 target were delayed by departments or were not prioritized for implementation. We also found a lack of reliability and transparency in economic and emissions modelling, leading the government to make overly optimistic assumptions about emissions reductions.

I was also concerned to find that responsibility for reducing emissions was fragmented among multiple federal entities not directly accountable to the Minister of Environment and Climate Change. This means that the minister has no authority to commit other entities to reduce emissions to meet the target.

The good news is that some measures in the 2030 emissions reduction plan are quite promising. If applied rigorously and extensively, carbon pricing and regulatory measures could lead to considerable reductions in emissions.

We expect to publish our next report under the Canadian Net‑Zero Emissions Accountability Act in the fall. In this report, we'll assess the government's actions in three areas. These areas are the implementation of specific emission reduction measures, the advancement of our recommendations and public reporting on progress.

In closing, I would like to reiterate that it will soon be too late to avoid the catastrophic effects of climate change. Intense forest fires, smoke in the sky, heat waves, severe thunderstorms and floods are becoming increasingly serious and common. These events are affecting people across Canada.

Canada's most important response to the global climate emergency involves taking concrete action to reduce emissions. There are solutions, such as implementing effective financial and regulatory measures to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. The issue lies in the fact that the available solutions are being implemented much too slowly.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening remarks. We look forward to answering the committee members' questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, again.

Mr. Tremblay, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Jean-François Tremblay, Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll try to be brief, given my allotted time.

I'm pleased to be speaking with you today here on Parliament Hill on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

I would like to thank the commissioner for the report and for the quality of the report. I would also say that it's an important audit for us.

As he mentioned, every day, Canadians are seeing the growing impact and costs of climate change. I'm talking about people such as firefighters, first responders, indigenous peoples and people in western communities such as Fort McMurray in Alberta and Fort Nelson in B.C. who are asking themselves what kind of forest fire season they will get this year.

This audit is important because it reiterates the urgency to act. It's also important because it provides even more transparency on the government's efforts to reduce emissions. As the commissioner pointed out, little time is left to achieve our goals by 2030. However, I would like to come back to some elements that I think are positive.

The report was released before the ERP of last year. If you are looking at the ERP for the first time, we have a report showing that we will exceed the old target of 30% by 2030, which was not the case—we were far from there—a few years ago. We will also exceed the 20% reduction by 2026.

Furthermore, the 2024 “National Inventory Report” indicates that Canadian emissions are continuing to drop. In 2022, emissions were at 44 million tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions below prepandemic levels. This is the lowest level ever in 25 years if, of course, you eliminate the two years of COVID.

Regardless of the progress, we agree that we do not have a lot of time in front of us and that more effort is needed.

Today, I want to reiterate to the committee that my department welcomes the commissioner's recommendations in the report.

We believe that we're taking steps in this area in terms of transparency, the quality of reporting, actions, the development and implementation of new regulations, the enhancement of current regulations, the increased capacity to model greenhouse gas emissions and the scope of different policies.

In a way, these are the points that I wanted to emphasize.

Along with my colleagues, I would now be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Last is Mr. Conrad.

It's over to you for five minutes.

[Alexis Conrad, Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Economic and Regional Development Policy, Privy Council Office]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to you today.

I would also like to point out that this meeting is taking place on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

The commissioner of the environment and sustainable development has a critical role under the Canadian Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act in examining and reporting on the government's implementations of emissions reduction actions. We very much appreciate the commissioner's work and role in this important topic. We welcome the commissioner's team's constructive engagement with the Privy Council Office throughout the audit.

The Privy Council Office is working to continuously improve our approach towards meeting Canada's climate objectives, and the commissioner's work will help us do so.

The Canadian Net‑Zero Emissions Accountability Act calls for a periodic cycle of planning, analysis reporting and distribution of climate‑related information as part of Canada's efforts to meet its net‑zero goals.

This ensures ongoing improvement in our efforts to achieve Canada's climate goals and meet the requirements of the act. This first audit establishes a useful baseline and provides important information about the government's collective work in this area.

My team at the Privy Council Office, which I lead as the assistant secretary, supports cabinet consideration of climate and environmental policies. To better support that work, PCO created a climate secretariat in the spring of 2021. The secretariat supports cabinet consideration of climate policies. It also provides integrated analysis, advice and reporting to senior leadership and to the Prime Minister and his office, and supports interdepartmental coordination of the government's actions to address climate change.

One of the audit recommendations concerns the Privy Council Office, or PCO, and another concerns both PCO and Environment and Climate Change Canada. I'm pleased to report that we're on track to implement both recommendations.

The first of those recommendations asked PCO to work with other federal entities to review the authorities, responsibilities and leadership accountabilities relating to climate change mitigation. Based on its review, it should develop an action plan for changes needed to ensure that climate change mitigation is prioritized and should make the action plan publicly available.

In response to this recommendation, PCO supports the idea of a review to ensure that the authorities, responsibilities and leadership accountabilities remain as effective as possible. Areas and instruments that could be explored include mandate letters, cabinet committee structures and assignments, and the alignment of ministerial and departmental powers, duties and functions.

At this stage, PCO's machinery of government secretariat is undertaking a process of assessing existing legislative authorities that touch on climate change mitigation and is also examining existing decision-making processes.

The other recommendation concerns both PCO and Environment and Climate Change Canada. We're asked to make substantive information from the integrated climate lens analyses publicly available, as stated in the report.

Under ECCC's leadership and with PCO's support, cabinet has recently adopted a new directive that requires departments to apply a climate, nature and economy lens to policy proposals that they bring to cabinet or propose for funding. The lens aims to provide ministers with high-quality environmental information as well as economic analysis to support the government's decision-making.

Tackling climate change is a priority for the government. PCO has provided and continues to provide an important contribution towards this work. Our team brings officials together from across government to help find solutions to complex policy questions.

Thank you for your attention.

I look forward to answering your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I want to thank you as well.

We'll begin the first round with Mr. Mazier. The first four questioners have six minutes each.

You have six minutes, sir. It's over to you.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming out this afternoon.

The commissioner's report listed the net-zero accelerator fund as a measure to meet the government's emission reduction targets.

Commissioner, has the government revealed to you what the internal emission reduction target is for the $8-billion net-zero accelerator fund—yes or no?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

We anticipated that there would be some questions regarding our new net-zero accelerator initiative report, and Mr. Lequain is here to address those questions.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

It was just a simple yes or no. Have you seen that?

[Mathieu Lequain, Principal, Office of the Auditor General]

Yes.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

What is it?

[Mathieu Lequain]

This is cabinet confidence, so I cannot share this information. You would have to ask the department.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I can't hear him, Chair.

[Mathieu Lequain]

Yes, we have seen the number, and this number is a cabinet confidence. It's in the MC and TBS.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

You can't tell us what the $8 billion net-zero accelerator fund is reducing in emissions because of cabinet confidence? Is it secret?

[Mathieu Lequain]

I'm sorry.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Who in cabinet, what department, gave you that letter?

[Mathieu Lequain]

It was Innovation, Science and Economic Development.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Okay.

[Mathieu Lequain]

However, we note in the report that in the ECCC modelling, the net-zero accelerator initiative is expected to produce a 19- to 20-megatonne reduction.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Mr. Tremblay, my question is simple: What is the government's emission reduction target specifically for the $8-billion net-zero accelerator fund?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

I'm sorry but I think the question has to be asked to my colleagues at ISED.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Deputy minister, your minister's mandate letter actually states:

Support the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry in the implementation of the Net Zero Accelerator initiative, with an emphasis on ensuring that investments drive industrial transition and significant reductions in greenhouse gas emissions.

That's in his mandate letter, and you can't tell me anything about the targets, the internal targets for this fund for $8 billion?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

As was said, there were numbers included in the ERP regarding exactly the functions and how it works for these programs. The accountability is with the Department of ISED. We're there to support them, but we're not there to speak on their behalf on their programs and the way they manage them. It would be more appropriate for the Department of ISED to answer these questions.