Evidence of meeting #131 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sdtc.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Hogan  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Simon Kennedy  Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Andrew Hayes  Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I now call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 131 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I'd like to ask all members and other in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidance to prevent audio feedback incidents.

Please keep in mind the preventive measures in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.

Please use only an approved black earpiece. Keep your earpiece away from all microphones at all times. When you're not using your earpiece, please place it face down on the sticker, which is generally to your right but could be to your left. It is well away from the microphone. Also, as a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is undertaking the consideration of report 6 from the Auditor General of Canada, entitled “Sustainable Development Technology Canada”, referred to the committee on Tuesday, June 4, 2024.

Before welcoming our witnesses, I would like to thank the Office of the Auditor General of Canada for the documentation it has already provided to the committee in response to the questions asked on June 4, 2024. We are waiting for the answers to come regarding breaches of the conflict of interest rules and the projects that received funding, in accordance with the request made by the committee on June 4, 2024.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses.

From the Office of the Auditor General, we have Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada; Andrew Hayes, deputy auditor general; Mathieu Lequain, principal; and Ewa Jarzyna, director.

From the Department of Industry, we have Simon Kennedy, deputy minister. It's good to see you.

Finally, from Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, we have Francis Bilodeau, associate deputy minister. I appreciate seeing you today as well.

Each group will have five minutes for an opening statement.

As per our custom, we'll begin with you, Ms. Hogan, for five minutes, please.

3:45 p.m.

Karen Hogan Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Mr. Chair, thank you for this opportunity to discuss our report on Sustainable Development Technology Canada.

I want to begin by acknowledging that we are gathered on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

This audit examined whether the foundation, Sustainable Development Technology Canada, managed public funds in accordance with the terms and conditions of contribution agreements and its legislative mandate. It also examined Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada's oversight and administration of public funds. Between March 2017 and December 2023, the foundation approved $856 million of funding to 420 projects.

We found that there were significant lapses in Sustainable Development Technology Canada's governance and stewardship of public funds. Specifically, the foundation awarded $59 million to 10 projects that did not meet key requirements set out in the contribution agreements between the government and the foundation.

I am also very concerned by breakdowns in the foundation's governance. The foundation was not always following its conflict of interest policies, and it failed to comply with the Canada Foundation for Sustainable Development Technology Act. The act requires the foundation to have a group of 15 members, separate from its board of directors, to represent Canadians and appoint most of the foundation's board. We found that the foundation did not comply with the legislation because it had only two such members instead of the required 15.

On the conflict of interest issue, the Canada Foundation for Sustainable Development Technology did not have an effective system for recording conflict of interest declarations or the measures taken in that regard. While we found 96 cases in which members of the board of directors complied with the conflict of interest policy by declaring their conflict and recusing themselves from the vote, there were 90 cases in which the foundation's records showed that the conflict of interest policy was violated. Those 90 cases were associated with funding decisions that granted almost $76 million to projects.

We also found that Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada did not adequately evaluate whether the foundation was complying with the contribution agreements. Because of its limited oversight activities, the department was unable to ensure that the funds were spent in accordance with the terms of the contribution agreement. As well, it did not conduct any compliance audits of the foundation and did not monitor conflicts of interest.

Like any organization funded out of public moneys, Sustainable Development Technology Canada must operate transparently, responsibly and legally. Our findings show that when there are failings in that regard, it becomes difficult to show that the funding decisions made on behalf of the Canadian public are appropriate and justified.

This concludes my opening statement. We will be pleased to answer questions from committee members.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you once again.

Mr. Kennedy, I expect that you'll be making the presentation. You have five minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Simon Kennedy Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Thanks for the invitation to appear before the committee today, Mr. Chair, and for allowing me to provide some opening remarks with regard to the audit of SDTC.

I have three points that I would like to present to the members of the committee.

First, I would like to strongly underline my department's commitment to sound management of public funding. We aim to ensure effective stewardship in all of our activities and, where weaknesses are found, to take swift action to correct those weaknesses.

The record shows that Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada moved swiftly as soon as we were made aware of the allegations of mismanagement at SDTC. We were informed by the whistle-blower of the allegations in mid-February 2023. Very shortly thereafter, we issued a contract for a leading audit firm, Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton, to conduct a fact-finding exercise. The firm had full access to the evidence provided by the whistle-blower.

RCGT's report was presented to the department in late September 2023. It revealed inconsistencies and opportunities for improvement in the organization's governance and conflict of interest practices, in its compliance with its contribution agreement and in its HR practices. Within a few short days, the minister was briefed, and he ordered SDTC to implement a detailed corrective action plan in order to pause on new project funding.

In response to concerns regarding the SDTC's human resources practices, the department decided to do a second review, and that required the contribution of SDTC and the Attorney General of Canada.

Within the space of a few short weeks, the government engaged a leading national law firm, McCarthy Tétrault, to look deeply into the allegations around HR practices. That review was thorough, interviewing more than 60 current and former SDTC staff, executives and board members, and there was an associated document review. ISED also provided to the law firm the package we received from the whistle-blower. This review found that neither current nor former executives engaged in harassment, that severance packages and NDAs were aligned with normal business practices and that HR complaints were unequivocally addressed.

Finally, of course, the Auditor General conducted her own audit. We've been very pleased to work closely with Ms. Hogan and her office, and we welcome the findings of her audit. We are in full agreement with her findings, including the recommendations directed to ISED. Indeed, we're already quite advanced in implementing improvements.

My second point is to underline the unique nature of SDTC. Its legal structure played a role both in how we got here today and in the government's plans for restoring funding to the clean-tech sector. More than 20 years ago, Parliament set up this organization as a private foundation. This means that it's an organization in the private sector and is not owned by the government. The statute makes clear that SDTC is not an agent of the Crown. In this regard, it is totally unlike a branch of my department, a Crown corporation or even a third party that might act as our agent to deliver a program on our behalf.

Through a contribution agreement, ISED allocated funds to SDTC for a specific purpose. However, much of the day-to-day decision-making on how the organization should operate and exactly how its programming should work is, by design, in the hands of the SDTC board and management team.

Under the legislation, the government's ability to oversee this organization's activities is limited to the terms of the contribution agreement. Any human resources issue at Sustainable Development Technology Canada therefore falls outside government oversight by law. The employees are not public servants and none of the usual legal structures that apply to public servants are in play. That is why the former board of directors had to waive its rights before McCarthy Tétrault could begin its review of human resources practices.

As the Auditor General noted, ISED did conduct monitoring activities under the contribution agreement, but as the Auditor General said, these were not sufficient to pick up the problems inside SDTC. We agree and are already well advanced in putting in place structural changes in how we oversee clean-tech funding.

My final point, briefly, is with regard to the action plan to restore confidence in clean-tech funding. We are confident that the transition of both rank-and-file staff and SDTC programming to the NRC will directly address the concerns that have arisen from the various reviews.

The NRC and IRAP have a 100-year history of excellence in delivering programming to Canadian business. Moreover, they have expertise in clean tech. They are well suited to take on the new responsibilities. Moreover, unlike SDTC, the NRC is a Crown agency. It is fully subject to important statutes such as the Financial Administration Act. Its employees are public servants directly accountable to the Crown. Its governing council, in its entirety, is named by the government. The president of the NRC is a GIC appointee subject to regular performance reviews by the government.

The challenges identified at SDTC revolved almost entirely around its arms'-length independent governance model, which clearly, as the minister has said, was not sufficient to meet modern expectations of public sector governance. By placing its programming inside the public service, the ability to scrutinize and ensure adherence to key government policies, whether in finance, administration, conflict of interest or HR, will be much higher.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to present my comments. I am now prepared to answer questions from members of the committee.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you.

We will begin with our first round. Each of the first four members will have six minutes.

Mr. Barrett, you have the first slot.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Ms. Hogan, we got a shocking response from your office to a question from my colleague Mr. Perkins.

Are you able to confirm that the total amount of money handed out by SDTC in cases of conflicts of interest was more than a quarter billion dollars—$336 million?

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I'd like to provide a bit of clarity to the figures. There were 96 cases of conflict of interest that we believed were managed well and where board members recused themselves from the vote. Those were linked to $259 million in funding. Then there were 90 cases, as we noted in the audit, where there were conflicts of interest that were not properly managed and where individuals who had declared a conflict of interest continued to be involved in the discussion and then vote. Those were linked to $76 million of funding.

You can't just add the two up because some of the funding appears in both buckets. It isn't just a case of adding the two numbers, but it represents a total of $319 million.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

It was $319 million in the cases of the conflicts of interest. Thank you very much.

Mr. Kennedy, when was the minister or staff first informed about any of the findings of the RCGT report? What was the date?

3:55 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

I'm looking at the chronology. The minister was briefed on the results of the fact-finding exercise and the next steps on September 27, 2023. There's a briefing note that my office would have provided to him to support that discussion.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Prior to the end of September, you never discussed any findings at any stage of the RCGT report with the minister or his staff before that formal briefing at the end of September.

3:55 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

We received the confidential file from the complainant on February 16. We briefed the minister shortly thereafter on the fact that we had received this binder and the proposal to conduct this review using a third party audit firm. Then the review unfolded between early March and late September. The minister was briefed on the findings in late September, on the date that I noted.

Certainly I would have let him know the review was continuing and so on. I meet the minister regularly, so I would have maybe orally let him know that RCGT was continuing its work, but the briefing of the findings was on September 27, 2023.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

We heard from your CFO that there were multiple discussions in June and that prior to the September date, the minister was read in on it.

Do you agree with Mr. McConnachie's statements that the minister had been read in on the status of the RCGT report not at the end of September but in fact in June?

3:55 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

I would, as part of normal practice, have kept the minister apprised of the fact that the audit work was continuing.

Again, I believe it's a matter of record, but we received a preliminary assessment from RCGT on their work, and we amended the contract for them to do additional fieldwork. That was in early June.

There were multiple rounds with RCGT where we asked them to go back and do additional work. However, as I said, the results were presented to the minister on September 27.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

On September 15, SDTC said you told them there would be no further investigation and they should consider suspending funding, so you made the decision on the 15th prior to briefing the minister in full to that effect. That wasn't the minister's call; that was yours. Is that correct?

3:55 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

There are two things, I think, happening here at the same time. One is the work that RCGT was doing, and the dates I've noted. The second is that in the way SDTC normally operates—and this is my layperson's description—they have a regular funding cycle where they do reviews of projects and make funding awards. When I spoke to the organization, I advised them that it would be unwise to continue business as usual.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Then that was your decision.

4 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

It was really SDTC's decision to suspend. At that point, the minister hadn't issued a formal stop order, but it was advice—they had a board meeting coming—saying, “You may wish to delay decision-making because the audit report is almost final. We'll be talking to the minister and you don't want to—”

4 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

I am running short on time, sir.

The findings were produced by RCGT in May. The study was extended. Did you make that decision or did the minister make the decision?

4 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

That would have been made by me. It would have been the department's decision to extend that.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

The findings were enough for ISED to discuss an action plan, including a new office at a director general level to deal with it, but that never materialized.

Who made the decision, and on what date, to extend? You said you didn't brief the minister until June. These seem like pretty advanced decisions for the minister to not weigh in on.

4 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

I'm not sure I understand. I'll try to answer.

We had RCGT doing audit work. The audit work clearly picked up that there might be issues. We wanted them to do additional fieldwork so we would have a definitive assessment to present to the government.

When we were getting closer to the final report being ready for presentation to the government, we were working on our management response and action plan, which I can make available to the committee. I believe it's a matter of public record. That was the actual response to the audit: What would we do in response to these findings that were problematic?

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

Up next is Mrs. Shanahan for six minutes, please.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Thank you very much, Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today, and I'd like to thank the Auditor General in particular for an excellent report.

I am glad to see that the department is moving forward on the recommendations and is co-operating in every way on this matter. However, what concerns me is the highly unusual—I would say for this committee—letter that we received from the Auditor General on June 10. It concerns the motion that was passed in the House of Commons the week before regarding the production of documents and indeed the entire audit file housed by the Office of the Auditor General.

In the letter, Auditor General, you expressed your concern about “some of the short-term and long-term impacts of this motion” and how producing this “entire audit file to the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel compromises [your] independence, and is also likely to discourage departments, agencies, and Crown corporations from providing” you and your office “free and timely access to the information required for [your] audits going forward.” This concerns me greatly as a member of this committee because the independence and integrity of the Office of the Auditor General are of paramount importance.

Auditor General, can you explain the background of the letter you sent to this committee last week in regard to the House motion and your investigation of SDTC? Why do you feel it's important to voice your concern at this time? Can you please explain further your thinking behind this?

4 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

As to the timing of my letter, it was from before the original motion had been amended. I think it's important for the time frames to know that.

I believe including my office in that motion was unnecessary since inserting the law clerk didn't seem to be needed in order to see my office comply with a request from Parliament. We have always co-operated very swiftly with Parliament, and I already had established mechanisms in place to ensure that the RCMP could access any information that they believed was necessary in the course of an investigation they might undertake.

When it comes to my independence and the long-term impacts that I think this might have on audits, I think Parliament believes that my audit files should be protected, and they signalled that by shielding them, in the Auditor General Act, from access to information and privacy requests. This was done in the context of the Federal Accountability Act. It was important for the information we gather to be protected in some fashion. It was also done to ensure that public servants, or any other individual who wished to talk to us, could provide us with free and timely access to information.

My concern about being included in this motion was that it might hinder my ability to gain timely access to information going forward or hinder the freedom that public servants feel now. When they talk to us, what they say should remain confidential and appear in our report in the best way possible to help Parliament hold the government to account.

I was concerned about that. I was also concerned about the time and cost it might take to respond to such a request. It was unclear to me at the time whether my entire file needed to be translated to meet this motion, so there were many things causing some concern. However, as soon as the motion passed in the House, we communicated that day with the law clerk, and we're working through how to ensure that we continue to support Parliament, as we always have.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Thank you very much for that answer. We can certainly rely on the professionalism of your office and the other offices in Parliament. More and more, however, we're seeing, for a variety of reasons, this push to divulge all information, regardless of where it comes from, what it's used for and what its purpose is.

Do you believe this type of motion—and who knows what could come up in the future—could affect the integrity of future investigations you might conduct? Would this have a chilling effect, in other words?