Evidence of meeting #132 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A video is available from Parliament.
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
I'm sorry, but your time is up.
We will now move on to the next speaker.
Mr. Desjarlais, go ahead once again for your last two and a half minutes.
6:15 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
To the RCMP commissioner, are you familiar with the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls inquiry?
6:15 p.m.
Commr Michael Duheme
Yes.
6:15 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Are you familiar that it cites, “The RCMP have not proven to Canada that they are [even] capable of holding themselves to account”.
Are you familiar with that passage?
6:15 p.m.
Commr Michael Duheme
I'm not familiar with it. I don't remember reading it, but I don't discount it. If you're saying that it's in there, I'll take your word for it.
6:15 p.m.
Commr Michael Duheme
It has been a while, and there's a lot of information in the report that came out.
6:15 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
I recommend reading it again. The crisis is quite urgent. It's ongoing, so I'll turn my attention to the questions I have related to it.
Considering that you haven't read it in a while, I suggest that you do, particularly in advance of the questions that I would ask. If you can't answer them, I would hope that you can supply them in writing because it is, of course, a national emergency. I hope you can understand the gravity of this case and these issues.
It has been ongoing. We've now had five years since the tabling of the national inquiry. We've had hundreds of women come forward talking about the misconduct of the RCMP. In Alberta alone, we've had a case where a 33-year-old constable was charged and arrested with child sexual exploitation. The families and victims of that are scared, and they feel as though justice has not been met. The officer was suspended with pay.
Do you find that to be justice?
6:15 p.m.
Commr Michael Duheme
Mr. Chair, I did not say that I did not consider this a crisis. The question that was asked of me was if I remembered the line that the committee member read. I, of all people, understand the crisis that was brought to us.
The RCMP has a unit that looked at all the recommendations. I've had a chance, for the last year and a half, to travel across this great country and meet with the folks who are doing the work on the ground with the different communities. I can tell you that there's some excellent work going on based on the recommendations that came out.
6:15 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
With all due respect, it has to be more urgent.
To the commissioner, you have to understand that this is every single day. These are the lives of real people. It's women who do not have trust in the RCMP. It's a critical issue of national import. Should we not have justice, like in the case I just mentioned, it creates real distrust.
A 33-year-old constable of the RCMP was charged and arrested for child sexual exploitation and received a suspension with pay. Is that justice?
6:15 p.m.
Commr Michael Duheme
Mr. Chair, I wish to remind the committee member that there's also a criminal investigation that's taking place. What he's referring to right now is the internal process that the organization has when it comes to code of conduct investigations.
6:15 p.m.
Commr Michael Duheme
Justice will be served through the criminal courts.
6:15 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
What steps will you take, other than updating the uniform, to directly support the work that needs to be done to ensure that the RCMP can gain more trust with indigenous peoples and their nations?
Is it about time that we actually enhance the policing agreements that are put in place with first nations and allow first nations, Inuit and Métis to police themselves?
6:15 p.m.
Commr Michael Duheme
Mr. Chair, I can confirm with you that the entire organization is aware and is doing all it can to rebuild the trust and work with the communities across this country to rebuild that trust and to assist the communities when we can.
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much. That is the time.
Turning now to Mr. Brock, you have the floor for five minutes.
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Mr. Chair, I have a point of order before you start my time.
A number of members, including me, have asked for information from both of these witnesses. These witnesses, from time to time, have agreed to supply us with information.
Is it your intention to inform them as to what our usual return time is for the delivery?
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Thank you.
Gentlemen, this is a different topic.
On March 20, Minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada Duclos and President of the Treasury Board Anand addressed the government operations committee and revealed that, through a combination of tips and advanced data analytics, they had uncovered three subcontractors engaged in fraudulent billing across 36 government departments amounting to nearly $5 million.
They confirmed at committee, as they did at a national press conference, that all three subcontractors had been referred to the RCMP.
The department officials then testified approximately two months thereafter and initially refused to provide the names of those subcontractors to committee. Only after we brought to their attention that parliamentary rules trump privacy, they actually revealed the identity of three individuals—not corporations but individuals.
Are those individuals currently being investigated, or has the investigation been completed and charges laid?
6:20 p.m.
D/Commr Mark Flynn
I am very much aware of the situation that you're describing. I will go back to my previous statements. I will not be speaking to, or confirming, any active investigations into these specific incidents.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
6:20 p.m.
D/Commr Mark Flynn
As I said, I will not be confirming that.
6:20 p.m.
D/Commr Mark Flynn
I will not confirm nor deny it, but I'll go back to my earlier statements that the RCMP is involved in a broad number of investigations regarding procurement irregularities.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
During that same period, both ministers outlined that this discovery, which was traced back almost six years, was merely the tip of the iceberg, suggesting a potential series of revelations to follow. The minister noted—this was Duclos—that five to 10 additional cases were currently under scrutiny. Subsequently, the Department of Public Services and Procurement Canada described this as a “first wave”. They disclosed that another five to 10 cases were under examination.
When Minister Duclos appeared at committee not too long ago, it was probably two and a half months removed from his announcement of a potential second wave. I asked him, specifically, on four subsequent occasions, of those five to 10 companies currently under review for fraudulent billing, if any of those cases have been referred to the RCMP. He wouldn't give me an answer, so let's talk to the source.
Has Minister Duclos or a member of his department, or Minister Anand or a member of her department, referred additional cases to the RCMP? I'm not asking you to opine on the nature of the investigation. I'm asking for a confirmation. Has a referral been made?