Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 3rd, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right; very good. Thank you.

Now I'm going back to the amendment, and I have a speaking list here already. Mr. Desjarlais is at the top of it. This is Ms. Khalid's amendment to withdraw and remove Minister Guilbeault and add the OAG and the RCMP commissioner.

I can almost predict what you're going to say, Mr. Desjarlais. You have the floor.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I feel it's probably not a surprise to you or members of our committee that I seek a compromise on this.

I think it's important that we probably keep all of these witnesses. If there are members who are proposing questions to the minister, the minister should be present to answer those questions, particularly as they relate to the transition of the file. On the transition of it toward the NRC, as we heard today, there are many questions that went unanswered. I think the minister, whose directive is responsible for that order of transition, is likely well informed on how to make that decision. In addition, with regard to the other names that were put forward by Ms. Khalid, I would also agree that those are important names to add to our list.

Balancing that with what Ms. Yip has said about trying to ensure that we have a scope that isn't so broad that it creates a study that is impossible to understand is also a concern I have. However, largely said, that concern, I think, is mitigated by the fact that having these persons present is likely better than not having them testify at all for the purpose of understanding that scope. Therefore, if this is the entire scope and if these are all the names, then at least we know the breadth and limits of it, if these are the breadth and limits.

I think this is actually a pretty reasonable and productive conversation among all of us today, because now we have a whole list. We have—I don't know how many it is now—a dozen names. We can schedule meetings with at least some of these on this topic, which I think is an outcome you would favour too, Mr. Chair. I think it would be—and is—enticing to me as a member of this committee to seek consensus on what I think is a serious issue.

If we have questions for witnesses and if members have witnesses to put forward, let's ask them.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Khalid, are you speaking again to your amendment? I can move you down if....

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

If you can move me down, Mr. Chair, I'd appreciate that. I'd like to listen to what my colleagues have to say first before I comment.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes.

Mr. Brock, you have the floor if you're still willing to speak. Otherwise, I'll go to Mr. Genuis.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You can move me down as well, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right.

Mr. Genuis, you have the floor. This is Ms. Khalid's amendment that adds both the RCMP and the Auditor General and removes Minister Guilbeault.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Desjarlais, I think, made a good suggestion, but he didn't formalize it with a subamendment, which I think is procedurally required unless we want to proceed by unanimous consent. However, it's maybe cleaner to just move the subamendment.

The subamendment is to uncancel Mr. Guilbeault.

[A voice]

What?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I think he means to keep him on the list, but yes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It's to uncancel...to remove the proposed cancellation and to keep him on the list so that if the subamendment and the amendment—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Order, Mr. Genuis.

This is in order. We are debating Ms. Khalid's amendment to remove the three individuals. Mr. Genuis is making a subamendment to strike her suggestion that we remove Mr. Guilbeault. Mr. Genuis wants to keep Mr. Guilbeault.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes, and just to briefly motivate, I think that's consistent with the consensus we want to establish, which is to say, as Mr. Desjarlais said, that we're not leaving a massive, unlimited, open-ended bucket of witnesses. We are defining witnesses in the motion, but on the basis of what different parties see as being important.

Mr. Perkins already gave some specific reasoning around Mr. Guilbeault, and I think all parties will likely have questions they want to ask him. Let's keep the RCMP commissioner. Sure, let's keep the Auditor General. I think we'll have a chance to add the law clerk later, but let's also leave in Mr. Guilbeault.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right.

Ms. Khalid, I'm afraid you have the floor. Mr. Genuis's subamendment is for the consideration to keep Minister Guilbeault on our list of witnesses. Ms. Khalid, I have to ask you to speak to this. You're next.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Mr. Chair, I don't really have more to say, as I have already made my points as to why Mr. Guilbeault should not be included in this list, and I'm prepared to go to a vote on the subamendment at this time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I do have another speaker; it's Mr. Brock.

You have the floor.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I withdraw.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right.

Clerk, could you call the roll on this? This is the subamendment. This will determine whether or not Minister Guilbeault remains as a witness who will be called. If you vote in favour of the subamendment, Mr. Guilbeault will remain. If you vote against the subamendment, Mr. Guilbeault will be struck as a witness. Is that clear?

[An hon. member]

Not quite.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I will allow people to raise questions, but voting yes means you would like Mr. Guilbeault to appear. Voting no means he will not be called by this committee at this time.

Clerk, call the roll call.

(Subamendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Thank you. The subamendment is defeated.

We now go back to the amendment, which is effectively to add the OAG and the RCMP. Is there debate on that, or could I call a vote?

Clerk, could you call a vote? If you vote yes, you are voting for us to invite the OAG and the RCMP commissioner, and if you vote against, you are voting to not have them appear at this time. Mr. Guilbeault, as part of this amendment, will not be appearing as per our vote.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order, Chair.

If this amendment is defeated, then will Mr. Guilbeault appear, or will he at least be invited to appear?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That is a good clarification. Yes, if the amendment is defeated, we go back to the original motion, and Mr. Guilbeault is on it and the Auditor General and the RCMP are not.

Clerk, call the vote, please.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 6; nays 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Very good. Ms. Khalid's amendment to the motion has passed, so we're going to return to the motion for which I have a speaking list already. I'm going to clarify it to let you know who's on the speaking list so that you're ready.

It's Mr. Desjarlais again, and then Mr. Brock, Mr. Genuis and Madame Sinclair-Desgagné.

Just to summarize, the motion now does not include Mr. Guilbeault but does include the RCMP commissioner and the Auditor General.

You have the floor, Mr. Desjarlais.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I do agree, just off the top, with inviting the RCMP and the other witnesses mentioned. You said the law clerk, and what was the last one?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

No, the law clerk has not been added yet. You can move that, but the additions are the RCMP commissioner and the Auditor General.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I understand. Okay.

I'm in full agreement with the RCMP and the Auditor General, and if Mr. Perkins.... This is actually a question. We're on the original motion now, right? Can I speak to the original motion?