Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 5th, 2024

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, as I've mentioned, I have had conversations with the commissioner. I'm not sure if he's coming to appear before the committee. Absolutely, on whether there are more opportunities for awareness, this is something that certainly, in processes of continuous improvement, could be looked at. It would really be up to him, obviously, to decide.

As I said, I actually find, as a Governor in Council appointee myself, that they send out regular circulars to us. They send out reports. The Verschuren report would have been sent to all Governor in Council appointees as an information piece. I read it with great interest long before I was asked to appear before this committee.

I think they do a lot. I think the onus is on the individual to make sure they understand their obligations. Is there more we could do? For sure. In many cases, there's more we could do. I wouldn't want to put the commissioner on the spot in terms of the resources he has available, but it is certainly something I will continue to talk to him about in terms of whether there's more we could do to make sure people are aware.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

You mentioned that the PCO is making two appointments to the NRC board. How does your office assess these candidates?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, as I mentioned, I noticed on our website that there are two vacancies. We would normally run a process. As I have said from the outset, we would post a notice of opportunity on our website. We would invite people to apply. We would assess those applications.

Sometimes, depending on the requirements under the legislation, we don't fill all the positions available. It does become a question of efficiencies and costs at some point in time. There is, I would say, quite a comprehensive board for the NRC right now, but it's certainly something we could talk to our colleagues about if they're looking to fill members.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What is the PCO doing to attract people to difficult sectors?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, this is a huge challenge—I'll be honest with the committee—and I hope that, if people are listening today and they are interested in serving the country, they will put their applications forward. It is tricky. We have outreach initiatives, on which we work with departments, generally speaking, that are the experts and that work with the organizations.

Sometimes outreach headhunting firms are hired. We do try to be judicious about that, because it can be costly. I personally am quite careful in terms of making sure we hire firms that are going to actually be able to help us find candidates who are qualified—rather than just going to the usual suspects, to be honest—and that are going to try to find people from across the country who may not have put their hand up before to serve, so that we're really trying to attract diverse candidates from pockets all across Canada.

It is a challenge. I won't hesitate to say that. We have tens of thousands of people who apply for different processes. Some get more interest than others do. Certainly I hope that if one good thing comes out of today, it's that we get more people interested in applying to serve their country, because it can be hugely challenging and hugely frustrating and it causes delays. Sometimes it will take us up to a year to run a process because we just can't find people who fit the criteria to serve.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do you feel the conflict of interest rules might be too tight, given the challenges you mentioned just now? You also gave the example of someone from the nuclear energy sector being considered and how it was difficult to find anyone who did not have shares in the tech field.

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, I would say that I think we have a robust system in place. It's very strong legislation. You, as members of Parliament, also have to adhere to the legislation. I think it's quite strong, and it's quite important in a democratic society that we have strong legislative tools to protect against conflicts, but I would admit that it is a challenge. Sometimes it's really tough to find people who are willing to serve and who have the requisite skill set and knowledge that align with the legislation in question.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. We're now going to begin our fourth and final round, which will take us to approximately noon.

Mr. Brock, you have the floor for five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

We've heard from a number of witnesses, including you, with respect to this study, and in general you've all talked about a fair, transparent and robust appointment process with respect to the hiring of the disgraced former chair of the SDTC, Annette Verschuren. Clearly that was a failure, and it was seen by Canadians as a failure. In fact, it shattered the trust that Canadians have in our public institutions.

On the issue of failure, I want to talk about another colossal failure that your office had an interest in, and that was the hiring of the new human rights commissioner, Birju Dattani, who made anti-Israel posts under a pseudonym during his graduate school year. We know he was placed on leave, and then he ultimately resigned. Your office is responsible for vetting all federal appointments. Your office has acknowledged that an “administrative oversight” led to an incomplete background check. Now, to me, that means, “Whoops, we screwed up.” Clearly someone in your office did not do a thorough background check.

Canadians are wondering what this is going to cost us. When reporters asked Attorney General and Minister of Justice Virani whether or not Dattani was paid during his leave or received a compensation package after resigning, his spokesperson replied, “No comment.”

If the Attorney General and Minister of Justice doesn't want to respond, I'm going to ask you: Was Dattani paid during his leave, and if so, how much?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, I would mention that we are here today to talk about SDTC, so I am not super well prepared to address this question. However, Mr. Chair, if you're willing to allow it, I'll do my best to respond.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Absolutely. Yes, please do.

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, we at PCO did express regret that there was an administrative oversight in checking the names, as the member has pointed out. We have taken measures to ensure that, going forward, there will be clarity that all names provided will be sent forward.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Ma'am, I'm going to stop you there. My time is very limited as you know. You're not a first-time participant in a committee process.

My question was very simple: Was he paid during his leave and how much?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, I would reiterate that, in terms of personal information, I am not in a position to divulge personal information about compensation provided to any Governor in Council appointee.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Chair, I'm going to be asking for your intervention again.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm just going to pause the clock here, Mr. Brock. I don't want to take your time when I intervene.

Again, I'd ask you to be as forthcoming as you can. This committee is seized with this, and I would expect that there could be....

I'll hear from you in a second, Ms. Khalid.

I'd ask that you be as forthcoming as you can be on the member's question. Should you refuse to do so, the committee could well delve into this further and request—which is a polite way of saying “call for”—that information to come forward one way or another.

I believe Ms. Khalid has a point of order.

I'm trying to strike a balance here, Ms. Khalid. The witnesses know why they're here today—to provide answers. It's not up to me to call for those answers, but I am urging them to provide them. However, I will hear you. Go ahead, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

I do believe, as the witness correctly pointed out, that she's here to speak to a certain topic. The answers that someone is trying to bully out of her in this instance have nothing to do with the topic at hand. I would request, Chair, that you maintain the decorum of this committee on this topic, because if we're going to go down this path, then there are many other topics we could ask our respected witnesses here today about.

I really think we should stick to the topic at hand, and that is SDTC. We have spent a lot of time on this, and I don't think that going down this path will be helpful to what we're trying to achieve here, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

As you know, I give members wide latitude to ask questions when officials are before us. Mr. Brock is certainly well within the bounds of his rights. This committee is seized with several investigations. Of course, Ms. Khalid, that applies to all members. If there are questions outstanding for witnesses, they're not bound solely by the subject matter of the day. There is a well-established precedent for that.

I'll turn back to the witness.

Are you able to provide direction or an answer that is more forthcoming to Mr. Brock's—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Let me just finish my thought, and then I'll hear you.

The committee would certainly appreciate it. Mr. Brock would as well, but before you answer, I will hear Mr. Brock's point of order.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'm asking that Ms. Khalid withdraw her derogatory comment that I provided a bullying question to this particular witness. I asked it in a very respectful manner. I pressed it, but that was not bullying.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

While I think this committee has conducted itself admirably today, I will hear from Ms. Khalid, and hopefully we can move on after that.

Ms. Khalid, you have the floor.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

My comment about members opposite bullying witnesses was not specific to this witness but was about how I have watched and observed them behave towards all witnesses in this committee in general, so there's really nothing here to withdraw.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Brock, why don't we move on? I think the committee is....

I'm going to start the clock here.

You have the floor. Go ahead, please.

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, unfortunately, I will reiterate that we're not in a position to divulge information of a personal nature surrounding any compensation paid to an individual Governor in Council appointee.