Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 5th, 2024

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Since we've spent so much time on this issue, and there seems to be a lot of vagueness around how many people were recommended, what the process was with the minister and whether or not there was an objection, would you be willing to table with this committee the minutes from those meetings with regard to this appointment as well as the letter, signed by PCO, to the minister with the names he was to go and vet?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, I would signal that we have already provided all of the relevant documents in question to the House as part of the motion.

I would clarify, to the previous question from honourable member Brock, that my colleagues have provided me with the information that the process for the chair yielded a total of six recommended candidates.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you for that.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, that was provided to the House but not to this committee, so I'd like to move a motion, if I could. I move:

That the committee order the production of the following documents:

(a) the advice letter to the then-Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry regarding the 2019 appointment of the Sustainable Development Technology Canada Chair, as referenced by the witness today;

(b) the minutes of all meetings of the selection committee that considered that appointment; and

( c) all communications between Privy Council Office and then-Minister Bains, then-Minister Bains' office, the Prime Minister's Office, and the Department of Industry, respecting the appointment of Ms. Verschuren as Chair of Sustainable Development Technology Canada,

and that these documents be deposited with the clerk of the committee within seven days of the adoption of this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins. Is there any chance you have it—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

We have it translated.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay. Would you send it to the clerk right away, then? The clerk will then verify it and send it out to the members for consideration.

That will take a few seconds, so let me turn to the witnesses.

Did you catch everything that was requested by Mr. Perkins? Was that all tabled with the House, as far as you know?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

I'm just consulting my expert, Rima.

I'm pretty confident that it was. Definitely the advice letter in a redacted form was provided, as was anything we would have had on the process.

I would mention to the committee that some documents are transitory and we don't keep them. On this reference to minutes, we don't keep minutes, per se.

I'm pretty sure we've provided most of these documents.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay. I'm therefore hoping that we can dispense with this quickly. The documents appear to be in the parliamentary precinct, and it might not be too onerous a piece for it to be provided.

I believe there's an interjection from Ms. Khalid.

Again, we are working to get the motion sent out. I'm just trying to weave through this.

Go ahead, please, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'm just wondering something, and please pardon my ignorance.

If the documents are already in the House, don't all members have access to them? Can we get access through the House instead of delaying through witnesses, perhaps?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That might very well be the case. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to go that route. It's a question for Mr. Perkins. Mr. Perkins has put forward his motion, though, and I am seized by it for the moment.

Mr. Perkins, you have the floor, and the clerk is still working to get your motion out to all members for consideration. We'll turn to that after.

Go ahead, please.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

It's an excellent question. What I've seen to date so far in the letter to the law clerk that the law clerk has sent out are the cover letters from the various organizations, but the details have not been circulated about what's in any of the documents.

I agree that if they've already been provided, then it should be no difficulty to provide them directly to this committee without some sort of duplication.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

I'll notify you, members, that the motion has been sent out to you all. We will now turn to that, should there be any debate.

Is that a signal, Ms. Khalid?

Yes, Ms. Khalid has the floor. Then I see Ms. Yip, and then we will....

If I could.... Just hold on, everyone. For the witnesses, there is still one more round of questions. You're welcome to take a few minutes, if you'd like, to stretch your legs, walk down the hall or anything, but hold on for a few seconds because maybe we will get through this quickly or maybe not. Just hold on a few more seconds, and then I'll let you take that stretch.

Go ahead, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

As per yesterday, I will ask for your indulgence again today. Well, it wasn't yesterday. I guess it was two days ago. I'd ask that you let us finish our round of questions before going into debate on this motion. I don't want to keep our public officials waiting as we debate this.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Sure.

Could I have a gentlewoman to gentleman's agreement that you will not be calling to suspend the meeting during your five minutes?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I won't suspend unless you need to go to the bathroom, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

No, I'm sorry; I meant adjourn the meeting.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Oh, no, absolutely not.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay, that's very good, so we have an agreement then.

I'm going to seek consent. I need to seek consent.

Is there an agreement to have Ms. Khalid's five minutes of questioning the witnesses, at which point the witnesses will be excused, and then we'll turn back to Mr. Perkins' motion? Is there agreement?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I see no opposition, so Ms. Khalid, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

I'll turn the floor over to you.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I really appreciate that in many instances we can work in a collaborative fashion to make sure we're able to get to the bottom of where we need to get to.

Ms. McClymont, can I confirm one thing with you? I know that members of the opposition have said this multiple times, referring to the PCO as the PMO. Are they the same entity?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, to clarify, as I mentioned, the Privy Council Office is the bureaucratic arm that supports the Prime Minister as his department, and the Prime Minister's Office is his direct political ministerial staff who support him directly. Therefore, no, we are separate and distinct. It is not a dissimilar kind of construct to a minister's office in supporting a department, if that helps.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much. I just wanted to clarify that for the record.

Now, I know that we've had a lot of conversations today about what it means to have conflict of interest in our public institutions within the roles that people of influence hold in terms of how they conduct business and with regard to that public perception of what our democracy is and what the value of those public institutions is. As the same token as we've heard of Ms. Verschuren.... For example, the Leader of the Opposition, when he invested in Bitcoin and then used his position for it to become a more powerful currency or of greater value.... It's something that sounds like a conflict of interest or, at the very least, an attempt to influence the market for his own personal gain.

Now, using that as an example and using the case before us with SDTC as an example, do you think that the conflict of interest rules are too tight, or are they too broad? Do we need to go into what it means, what a conflict of interest is in this day and age?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

I guess I would answer that by saying that we have over 2,000 Governor in Council appointees who live and abide by these rules every single day. As far as I can tell, it functions well, generally. I think we've struck quite a good balance in the current climate of having rules that protect taxpayers and still being able to attract some of the best and brightest in the country to serve the country in full-time and part-time roles across government institutions.