Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 23rd, 2024

[Guy Ouimet]

Thank you.

As we mentioned a few times, the situation was difficult for businesses. The assistance from the federal and provincial governments wasn't yet available. It was only released after that, from multiple sources. In discussion, management and the board developed a project to increase existing contracts by 5% in order to provide assistance to businesses in difficulty. This project was submitted by management.

It was said earlier that the 14‑month average doesn't justify additional assistance, but experienced venture capitalists will tell you that, to ensure the health of a business, an 18 to 24-month runway is required. However, at that time, some companies were at 14 months and were in difficulty.

Management consulted with each of the companies to ensure that it wasn't impossible to save them, in other words, that it was justified to continue to disburse funds to them. That's how the program was approved as a block, without any particular company being mentioned. It was a special program. It was implemented during the pandemic and was approved by government officials before it came into force.

As has been mentioned several times, the conflict of interest issue arises from a problem with the interpretation of a legal opinion concerning the Conflict of Interest Act. I think we all understand that. Furthermore, there was no wrongdoing or lack of good faith on the part of the directors.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

The whistle-blower testimony states that every company associated with the board members, including the chair, benefited from grants they approved.

Can you speak to this, given you were there?

[Guy Ouimet]

The legal opinion said that, given the universal nature of the measure, in which no company was singled out, and the fact that the conflicts had already been declared, we didn't need to recuse ourselves. Otherwise, the alternative would have been to hold multiple votes with an absent director each time, which would effectively have been contrary to the intent.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Before joining the board of SDTC, you had previously worked as an adviser to the SDTC from 2006 to 2014.

Is that correct?

[Guy Ouimet]

That is correct.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

That was during the Harper government.

What was SDTC's mandate throughout the Harper years? What type of work was it funding?

[Guy Ouimet]

SDTC had a similar mandate. The idea was to fund businesses, essentially for demonstration and start-up projects that would have an impact on greenhouse gases.

At the time, I helped SDTC set up a $500‑million investment fund, the NextGenTM biofuels fund. It was an initiative of the Harper government to compete with the U.S. on similar programs. I contributed, as an external adviser, to the structuring of that fund.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We're going to begin our fourth and final round. I'm going to truncate it slightly. Government and official opposition members will have four minutes, and the third parties will have two minutes for this last round.

Mr. Perkins, you have the floor, then, for four minutes, please.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

I'd like to go back to the Auditor General report. Maybe I could start with Mr. Kukucha and then Mr. Ouimet.

Mr. Kukucha, some board members had more conflicts of interest than others. One of them was Andrée-Lise Méthot, who is named the most in the Auditor General's list of that. When I look down the list of companies that her company, Cycle Capital, is invested in, it's hard for me to see how she could ever be in a board meeting; she would have been recusing herself all the time.

Did you see her leaving the room a lot?

[Stephen Kukucha]

Honourable member, I joined the board at a time that I believe was Ms. Méthot's last meeting, so I was not privy to any of the previous work or conflicts she declared.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Ouimet.

[Guy Ouimet]

Starting in 2018, I took part in board meetings with Ms. Méthot. She was there before I was, and she left before the end of my term.

During the time I was able to observe her behaviour, every time a conflict of interest was declared, she would leave the room or the virtual meeting to recuse herself.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I see Enerkem Alberta Inc., MineSense, Spark Microsystems, Concentric Agriculture, Polystyvert, Vuereal, Cellufuel, Greenmantra Technologies, ChrysaLabs, BorealisWind, Développement Effenco, Equispheres, Global Spatial Technology Solutions, Fractal Systems, GHGSat Inc., Heliene Inc., [Inaudible—Editor], Metamaterial Technologies, Peak Power, Purlucid Treatment Solutions, Terramera, Advanced Intelligent Systems, Anomera, Inc.

That's $114 million in total, Mr. Ouimet. While she was on the board, the financial interests of her venture capital firm had interest in all this. That's an awful lot of transactions that she left the room for. She probably wasn't in the room very much, then. Is that right? She was out of the room, by the looks of all of these, all the time. That's $114 million. Do you think it's appropriate that a board member had $114 million invested in a company she had a financial interest in during her time on the board?

[Guy Ouimet]

Mr. Chair, I never considered Ms. Méthot's interests. All I can say is that I have observed her behaviour. I remember that she recused herself after declaring a conflict of interest. I can't comment on anything else.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

You weren't following her interests. It's pretty hard not to, when they brief you at the beginning of every meeting of the conflicts that each director has, and then go about voting for those projects that that director has, when she has them.

Mr. Kukucha, you referenced that she left the board when you did. Are you aware that she left the board and went to the Canada Infrastructure Bank as a board member?

[Stephen Kukucha]

Honourable member, I did not track Ms. Méthot's activities post-SDTC and the one board meeting I sat in with her.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Are you not aware of Ms. Méthot's testimony here that she got $170 million from the Infrastructure Bank board while she went over there?

[Stephen Kukucha]

I was not.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

There's one last thing, Mr. Kukucha. You hadn't read the act when you got on the board. When I joined the BDC board, I read the BDC Act. It's not a difficult thing. You should always do that when you join a board. Second, you don't seem to know what the contribution agreements were. They are not the agreements between SDTC and the company being invested in; they are ISED-directed limits on what you can spend on.

Did you read the ISED-directed contribution agreements before you participated with everyone else in voting money outside those terms to companies?

[Stephen Kukucha]

Honourable member, there are two types of contribution agreements. There are those that are made between the companies and the organization when funding is granted, and those were the agreements I was referring to. Yes, I take your point. There is an agreement between the government and the broader organization with regard to funding flowing. That document was not made available to me as part of my onboarding package, so I did not have an opportunity to read that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Drouin, we'll go back to you.

You have the floor for four minutes, please.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Was Mr. Perkins appointed by the Conservative government on the BDC? I'm just checking.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Yes, I was.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Ouimet, as a point of information, you told my colleague that you own 1% of the shares of Lithion Recycling. Is that correct?

[Guy Ouimet]

Yes.