Evidence of meeting #144 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was point.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Of course, I'm happy to repeat it. Mr. Bains, I am happy to repeat and clarify this for you. Perhaps it's easier if I ask whether or not you read the Auditor General's report.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Mr. Bains, if you read the report, you'll know that it suggests that the minister is required to appoint a satisfactory number of board members. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt to suggest that maybe you did, in fact, do the work needed, as the minister responsible, to appoint the satisfactory number.
The issue that the Auditor General is pointing out is the fact that the board was then reduced to two people. These two people, including Ms. Verschuren, would go on—and it would be difficult during their tenure at that time of the board—to engage in direct conflicts of interest that the Auditor General has found to be pertinent to many companies, including her own company, that had received government funds. This is the crux of the issue, Mr. Bains, one I think Canadians want serious attention paid to and one that needs real accountability.
I understand that you have to get going in five minutes, and this is going to be probably my last round to ask questions. I do appreciate your being here. I don't necessarily appreciate the lack of answers, but that's your prerogative. My prerogative is to ask the questions, and your prerogative is to answer them. If you don't want to answer them or haven't read the report, that's completely up to you, and that's the sense I'm getting at this point, but I think you'd understand the issue that I have, that Canadians have and that the Auditor General has. You were responsible as a minister to ensure that the enabling legislation was followed and, at that time, was appropriately enforced.
The Auditor General is pointing out the very serious fact, Mr. Bains, that, during your tenure, that did not happen. In addition to these very serious concerns, there was a very legitimate issue that you were responsible for, which was the attendance of an assistant deputy minister named Mr. Andrew Noseworthy within your ministry. You were Mr. Noseworthy's supervisor, and you were directly responsible for him. You've met Mr. Noseworthy. Is that correct?
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
You had many conversations with Mr. Noseworthy, I presume.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
I appreciate that, Mr. Bains.
One of the issues that we found with Mr. Noseworthy is that he didn't know what his job was. What kind of boss—in this case, the minister—would have an employee, a very senior executive employee, an assistant deputy minister, who the Auditor General had to, unfortunately, describe as someone who didn't know their job—or their roles or responsibilities, to be exact—in relation to the fact that this person, one of your staff members, was present in the decision-making process of a board of two people who ended up giving themselves millions of dollars? That's a serious concern, Mr. Bains, and it's one that Canadians are upset about. It's harmed the very real and legitimate policy of ensuring that Canadians get access to innovation funding for small and medium-sized businesses.
I'd encourage my colleagues to take this issue far more seriously than we have today, because there's a very likely fact, which is that Mr. Andrew Noseworthy knew that he was likely going to find himself in a position where he had to report to you, as the minister responsible, for what he had heard at the two-person board meeting he was at.
At any point in time, do you think he was ever going to question whether or not you would ask him what his roles and responsibilities were?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you, Mr. Desjarlais.
It is my intention to get through a truncated additional round, so I'm going to cut you off there.
Government and official opposition members will have four minutes each, and the two remaining parties will have two minutes each.
Mr. Cooper, you have the floor for four minutes.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Former Liberal minister Bains led the committee to believe that he had no active role in the appointment of Ms. Verschuren beyond receiving a recommendation from the Prime Minister's department, the PCO, as part of a so-called “open, transparent, merit-based” process.
You know that isn't true, just as you knew it wasn't true when you misled the committee in June. Isn't that right?
The question is for the former Liberal minister, Mr. Bains.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
This is also for the former Liberal minister, Mr. Bains.
Let's follow the chronology of events leading to Ms. Verschuren's appointment—someone who was in a conflict of interest at the time you appointed her.
On March 15, 2019—
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.
Is the former employer of the leader of the official opposition's wife out of order in calling Mr. Bains the names that he's calling him?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Ms. Khalid, come on. You, in fact, are up next, so you will have a four-minute right to the floor, during which you'll be able to make full use of it.
Mr. Cooper, you have just over three minutes, please.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
This is for the former Liberal minister, Mr. Bains.
Let's follow the chronology of events leading to Ms. Verschuren's appointment.
In September and October 2018, the PCO received 54 applications for chair of SDTC. On March 15, 2019, it provided you with a short list of five recommended candidates.
That's the process you keep referencing. However, you sat on your hands; you ignored the recommendation of the PCO. In April 2019, according to Ms. Verschuren, you called her and asked her to serve as the chair of SDTC. All of a sudden, on April 30, 2019—one and a half months after you had a short list of five recommended candidates—she applies. On May 21, 2019, the PCO adds her name to the short list, and you thereafter appoint her.
Do you really expect this committee and Canadians to believe that she was picked as part of a transparent, independent, merit-based process and that you didn't have your hand involved in picking her? Is that what you want Canadians to believe?
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
What happened here is that former Liberal minister Navdeep Bains didn't follow the process.
You didn't respect the process. You politically interfered in the process.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Did the other five recommended candidates have conflicts of interest with SDTC? Ms. Verschuren had a conflict of interest. What happened with regard to the other five candidates?
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Mr. Bains, you're not answering my question.
I asked you this: Did the other five candidates also have conflicts of interest? Ms. Verschuren had a conflict of interest at the time you appointed her. Her company was receiving $12 million from SDTC, and you knew about that.
Conservative
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
I truly respect Mr. Cooper, but he's asking the witness to opine on other members who were part of a board. I don't know what Mr. Bains can say. We know the former employer of the Conservative leader's wife is asking tough questions—