Evidence of meeting #149 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sdtc.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ziyad Rahme  Chief Operating Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
Karen Hogan  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Mathieu Lequain  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Andrew Hayes  Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Hilary Smyth

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Who's doing that review?

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you, Mr. Brock.

I'm afraid that is the time. We will certainly come back to you.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Can we come back to the questions I put to this particular witness?

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Yes. Mr. Rahme, the question that was put forward kind of breaks down into two parts.

If you would provide to this committee, as Mr. Brock recommended, the name of the officials who provided briefings to you, it would be appreciated. I don't think there's anything too out of sorts with that request.

As for your notes, would you provide us the notes that you're prepared to provide us and, as well, make very clear the parts that you are not? I would urge you to be as forthcoming as possible. Again, we're not there yet, but I'll just remind you that the committee does have the ability to order the production of documents, so I would urge you to be as forthcoming as possible. We look for that information in the next three weeks.

Could I leave that with you? I realize those notes were prepared for you, but they could well be relevant.

There's a point of order from Mr. Drouin.

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

On that, are we advising the witnesses who are appearing here that their personal notes may be shared? I'm just wondering.

Is Mr. Brock interested in the doodles that the witness may have done or...? Are we giving them a warning that their notes may be shared?

If I were appearing as a witness, I would like to know that.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Sure. As you know, Mr. Drouin, the committee does have latitude to order the production of documents, as does Parliament. In this case, they have been requested. This is something that I had not heard of before, which is why I wanted to consult with the clerk here to find a path forward that would be appropriate. I think we've landed there.

I'm going to turn things over to Ms. Khalid.

Is it a point of order?

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Yes, it's on that same one. I think it is reasonable—whatever documents the witness provides—for us to be able to review them in camera and then, as a committee, decide whether they should be made public or not to respect the reasonable privacy of any witness and not set precedents.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

We could do that.

Mr. McCauley.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

On that point, under the Access to Information Act, his notes qualify for ATIP, so they are not private.

I could file an ATIP request today on Mr. Rahme and receive those handwritten notes. That's required under the Access to Information Act. He works for the government. Those notes are written and are therefore part of the public record. There's no privacy for those.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Yes, Ms. Khalid.

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

I do believe there are exemptions. That rule is not for complete blanket access to somebody's doodles. I do think that we need to proceed with caution. I absolutely agree that if the witness wants to—

An hon. member

Open the doodles in camera.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Order.

Ms. Khalid, you have the floor.

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

I try not to heckle my colleagues on a regular basis, Chair, although I have lots of heckles to do. I try to be respectful and I would obviously appreciate the same courtesy.

What I was trying to say is that I think it is important for us, as a committee, to review the notes in camera before we decide whether or not to make them public.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I'm prepared to allow that, but I would just signal to the witness that you should send us your notes as if you expect they would be public, please. Again, I would ask that you be clear if you've removed elements and why that is.

On that note, I'm going to move on.

Ms. Khalid, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

Ms. Hogan, welcome back to our committee, and to your team, welcome. I know how hard you work.

Right off the bat, Ms. Hogan, what is your security clearance level?

11:50 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I'm top secret.

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Has that security clearance level ever stopped you from producing the amazing reports that you provide and from highlighting the important issues that you provide to our country?

11:50 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Yes, it would. It would restrict what I could put in a public report.

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

What kinds of restrictions are those? Does it stop you from highlighting important issues?

11:50 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

No, it doesn't stop me from highlighting important issues, but it stops me from providing the level of detail some members of Parliament would prefer, because I have to protect information that should not be in the public domain.

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Why is that? Why do you have to protect that information?

11:50 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Having a security clearance is a privilege. Things are classified because they could harm an individual or the national interest. There are two levels. It is my responsibility, as a public servant, to respect that and not to bring unnecessary harm to the country's national interest or a Canadian citizen.

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

I appreciate that.

To confirm, your security clearance level does not stop you from doing the work your office is designed to do, as an independent office.

Is that correct?

11:50 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

That's correct.

Not everyone in my organization has top secret clearance. Not everyone needs that level of security. We ensure that, when this kind of information is part of an audit, only those who have the appropriate security clearance are allowed to view it. We do so in a very secure fashion.

It doesn't stop me from doing my work, but it impacts what I can publicly report.