Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 20th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 152 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we begin, I'd like to ask all in-person participants to read the guidelines written on the updated cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including—and especially—our interpreters. I kindly remind all those in person, as well as online, that for the safety of our interpreters it is very important that your microphone is muted when you are not speaking. I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)g), the committee is resuming consideration of report 6, Sustainable Development Technology Canada, of the 2024 reports 5 to 7 of the Auditor General of Canada.

I would like to welcome our witness.

As an individual by video conference, we have Annette Verschuren, an officer of the Order of Canada.

Welcome, Ms. Verschuren. It's nice to have you here today. You have five minutes for opening remarks.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Wait one second, Ms. Verschuren. We have a point of order.

Yes, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have a couple of issues, Chair.

I noticed during the audio check for Ms. Verschuren that there were a number of people in the same room she is in. I'd like to have some clarification on whether they're still in the room, who those people are and whether or not they'll be communicating with her during her testimony.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You can pose those questions, Mr. Brock, at the time.

Hold on for one second.

I'm sorry about that. I just conferred with the clerk.

Those are questions I'll allow you to pose during the questioning, Mr. Brock. I know it's been done before during questioning.

I'll hear a point of order if you have further evidence I should consider.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'm happy to do that, Chair.

The second point of order I have, or the second aspect of the first point of order, is that, given the nature of the testimony, I'll be seeking unanimous consent to have the witness either sworn in or affirming to tell the truth.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to confer with the clerk on that. Wait one second, Mr. Brock. I'll come back to you.

Mr. Brock, your request is to seek UC for the witness either to be sworn in or to affirm to tell the truth. This requires all members' consent.

Do I have consent for the clerk and I to put this into effect?

Mr. Drouin, you have the floor.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Chair, I've sat on committees for nine years now. I know Mr. Brock is not new, but he hasn't been here for nine years.

I don't object to witnesses, obviously, telling the truth. It's the normal practice—and our expectation—for witnesses to tell the truth. There are other tools we can use if we believe witnesses are not telling the truth.

I would also say that it is known in this committee that members of Parliament also tell the truth as we opine. I'd say that we're all sworn to tell the truth. I certainly don't have an issue, but I would ask the same of Mr. Brock, as he opines during his questioning, to tell the truth as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

On the same point of order—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I was going to say that it is noted, Mr. Drouin.

I did not hear an objection from Mr. Drouin, so I'm still going to seek UC on that.

Go ahead, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

MP Brock and any other MP at this committee are not witnesses. We are members, who are duly sworn to represent our particular ridings. We are on this committee to ask witnesses questions.

His analogy would be akin to me going back to my old life and having a judge interrupt me in the middle of an examination-in-chief or a cross-examination to say, “Mr. Brock, you need to be sworn in to tell the truth in the form of how you're going to pose the question.”

That is a ridiculous assessment by Monsieur Drouin. Either we have unanimous consent or not. Clearly, by his intervention, I think we don't have unanimous consent, but I'd like to hear that from him.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Brock, no, that's not what what I heard. I'm going to call the question in a second here.

In fact, I heard quite the opposite from Mr. Drouin, but I'm going to make sure it's clear here, in case I heard it differently than you did, Mr. Brock. I will say to the same thing I said to Mr. Drouin: Your point is noted.

I am seeking unanimous consent for the witness to be sworn and/or affirmed to tell the truth. Do I have that agreement from all members?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to suspend this meeting for a few minutes while the clerk and I prepare for this.

This meeting is suspended for a couple of minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I will call this meeting back to order.

Mr. Drouin, you had your hand up briefly, but I see it's down now. Very good. We will proceed.

I'm going to turn this over to the clerk, who will run through this.

Ms. Verschuren, could we have your attention, please?

[Annette Verschuren, As an Individual]

Yes.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Hilary Smyth]

Do you swear that the evidence you shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

[Annette Verschuren]

I, Annette Verschuren, do solemnly, sincerely and truly affirm and declare that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I will now turn it back to you for any opening remarks.

You have up to five minutes, please. You have the floor.

[Annette Verschuren]

Mr. Chair, this is the fifth time I've appeared before a committee in relation to my work at SDTC. I've made a number of opening statements that are available online, should anyone want to read them.

With that in mind, I'll just turn it over to you and the members for questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right. We're going to get through four rounds today. The first round consists of four members with six minutes each.

Mr. Perkins, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Verschuren, for appearing again.

I'll start by asking.... Earlier, it appeared that there were two people in the room with you. Could you please share with the committee their names and what their roles are?

[Annette Verschuren]

There's no one in the room with me now.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

They're not there now. Okay.