Evidence of meeting #154 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sdtc.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
That's not what this chair said to me.
I will move on, then, because you're aware that doing so would be a breach of the ethics code of the public service.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Okay. I'm going to move on.
Let's get back to this issue of the former SDTC CEO's testimony on this and on the appointment of Ms. Verschuren. She testified before Parliament and said it was you who informed her that Ms. Verschuren would be appointed and would replace Mr. Balsillie.
As an Individual
Yes, I was asked by the deputy minister's office to call her and inform her that an order in council had been cut appointing Ms. Verschuren to the position.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
I think this was before that, because she expressed her concern, according to her testimony, to you about the conflict of interest. It took several weeks to get back to her, where she testified that, then, again, you confirmed that, in spite of the conflicts, she was going to be appointed.
As an Individual
I recall two conversations with the former CEO on Ms. Verschuren and her conflict. The first was when she informed me that Ms. Verschuren was a candidate and that she had informed Ms. Verschuren that she should seek the advice of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. The second was the conversation I just described.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
You mentioned that the deputy's office told you to say this. We couldn't quite get that out of either of the two deputies. Who in the deputy's office told you to tell Ms. Lawrence?
November 27th, 2024 / 5:40 p.m.
As an Individual
I don't recall. It's a common practice to inform the CEO—
As an Individual
—of that type of a decision. I suspect that was at the time that Mr. Knubley was in the process of retiring. I suspect it was someone within his office, perhaps the corporate secretary or someone else. I don't recall the specifics.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Who would have been the corporate secretary for Mr. Knubley?
As an Individual
I can't recall the name, sir, but I'm sure the department can provide it.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
We will follow that up.
Did you say to her that the conflicts would be managed?
As an Individual
I don't recall ever using that term in a discussion with Ms. Lawrence. When I advised her, as she has reported, that Ms. Verschuren was to be appointed, or had been appointed, she expressed concern about the conflicts. I'm sure we talked at that time about the importance of the organization having solid conflict of interest—
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Were you aware that Mr. Ouimet had applied or had been considered and was rejected before Ms. Verschuren was the chair?
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
You were not, but you do recall him being appointed after Ms. Verschuren. Ms. Lawrence testified that he was rejected because of his conflicts. Then, after Ms. Verschuren was appointed, where she would be in managed conflicts, she testified that he was then put back on the list to be a director now that conflicts were okay.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
You have no knowledge of that. There's another Acme sort of squashing thing happening here.
You remember quite a lot of details about your expertise or thoughts about how good this organization was, but you don't seem to remember any of the meetings you attended when it came to conflicts of interest, when everybody was having to leave that meeting. Somebody every meeting—or at least several—was having to leave and recuse themselves. There must have been a lot of wind blowing by you as they went out the door before their colleagues voted them more money, and then you never said anything. It's incredible to believe that you would sit there and say nothing to anyone about this.
I'll ask you this: Do you regret now never having raised these issues of conflicts of interest with your direct supervisor?
By the way, did you get a bonus every one of those years you were on this board?
As an Individual
I could only speak to my deputy minister about what I saw in front of me. The conflicts of interest, which have since come to light with the organization, were not obvious to me. They were not presented in a way that caused me sufficient concern to raise them—
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Could you answer the second part of my question?
As an Individual
I think I received compensation, which includes an annual performance bonus that is similar to every other ADM in the federal system.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Next, Ms. Khalid, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Noseworthy, for coming in today.
I know you've been asked a lot of questions today, so maybe I'll just take a step back and ask you this: Why are you here today? Can you help us understand why you think you're here today?
As an Individual
I'm here to assist the committee, in whatever way I can, in understanding what happened. I am, myself, a student of this, looking to see what happened here.
I can say to the committee, with absolute confidence, that I did not see issues of conflict of interest based on the vantage point I had in that organization. I accept, at face value, the determinations that have since come forward, by the Auditor General in particular, and I think that, as a matter of public policy, what happened here is something that requires interesting reflection in terms of the future governance and structure of federal organizations.
I would like to try to support the committee as it works through those issues.