Evidence of meeting #154 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sdtc.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
That's not a point of order, Mr. Perkins.
Mr. Drouin, you have the floor.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
I understand my colleagues' hesitation in moving such a motion. I invite them again to think about how many hours we want to spend on this, given that they've been talking about Sustainable Development Technology Canada in the House of Commons for two months. They don't want us to bring forward legislation. They don't want us to introduce bills to support Canadians and Quebeckers. I understand that, and I'm not accusing the Bloc Québécois or the New Democratic Party.
The Conservative Party has an obsessive need to filibuster everywhere, in the House and here in committee, by moving motions that don't respect the will of the committee to insist on exposing the truth.
We held 16 meetings and heard from 36 witnesses here in committee. I know that the Auditor General will be presenting another report next week, which is part of the normal procedure. I think the committee will be sitting, and there will be a briefing from the Auditor General at that time.
It's important that we move on as a committee. I'm reaching out to the opposition parties. We're not necessarily opposed to the possibility of inviting Minister Champagne to come and testify here.
At the last meeting, Zoë Kolbuc appeared before the committee.
Mr. Chair, you said that one witness, Leah Lawrence, didn't have the opportunity to come and testify because she's conducting certain studies.
I don't know what power our committee has in this regard, but, at this point, I believe we're able to agree on future testimony, knowing full well that other Auditor General's reports will soon be tabled in the House that our committee will have to consider.
I therefore move a motion to adjourn the debate.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
I have a motion to adjourn the debate. If the clerk could call the roll please, then, unless I stand to be corrected, we will get back to Mr. Noseworthy and wrap that up.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Yes, it depends on the vote, of course. Pardon me.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 7; nays 3)
The debate on the motion is closed. We're going back to our witnesses now.
I have two more members who will be questioning Mr. Noseworthy.
Mr. Cooper, there are four minutes on the clock for your time, if you'd like to take that or hand it off to one of your colleagues, and then I will go to Mr. Drouin to close down this section.
Mr. Brock, you have the floor for four minutes, please.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Mr. Noseworthy, I'm extremely disappointed in your responses because your version of events simply does not add up. You talk about the conflict of interest component and state that you weren't in a position to assess it. The fact of the matter is that the board members declared the conflict of interest and, according to your evidence, from time to time recused themselves.
Before I get to the fullness of the question, I want to be satisfied that you understand what recusal means. What do you think it means?
As an Individual
Recusal, sir, is that I saw the individuals depart the room and not participate in any further discussion.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
That's right.
The evidence is very clear, as revealed in the Auditor General's report. While you were in attendance at the majority, if not all, of the board meetings, conflicts of interest were declared. Sometimes people left. However, the evidence is clear that those conflicted Liberal directors, including the hand-picked Liberal chair Annette Verschuren, voted in favour of lining their own and their companies' pockets in your presence.
Your fantastical evidence today seems to suggest that you had no moral, ethical or legal obligation to report that to the deputy minister and, ultimately, to the minister. No one, sir, believes that.
You are a senior public servant, and I would hope you have the best interests of the taxpayer in mind. This massive scandal has cost the taxpayers well over $400 million. Your evidence, sir, of remaining essentially mute because your belief, pursuant to the contribution agreement, is that the board was to report these conflicts, which clearly they didn't, does not absolve you of your responsibility. You were extremely negligent, so the jig is up. I don't know who you're trying to protect.
Do you have anything to say about your lack of respect for the Canadian taxpayers, sir?
As an Individual
Mr. Chair, when I saw potential conflicts of interest, I saw people recuse themselves. I saw nothing to report.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
On your last occasion, sir, you lied. You claimed that Annette Verschuren at all times conducted herself completely appropriately. That is an absolute lie. In the words of Annette Verschuren herself, after she was outed by the Ethics Commissioner, she was found guilty of not recusing herself by not leaving the boardroom in your presence.
Why did you lie to us?
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
You do not recall the circumstance. How convenient.
Do you have a problem with your memory generally, or just specifically when you're asked tough questions?
As an Individual
I am not sure there is an appropriate answer to that question, sir.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Mr. Brock, that is your time.
I'm now going to Mr. Drouin for five minutes.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I certainly appreciate Mr. Brock's intervention, and I certainly wouldn't make any accusation before we conclude this report. I think that's important. This is what I was getting to in the debate around the previous motion. We need to ensure that, yes, we get to the bottom of the truth, but let's conclude this report so we can make recommendations to the House.
Mr. Noseworthy, we know what your role was. How often did you meet with SDTC? Was it every board meeting?
As an Individual
I attended most board meetings. I typically had a conversation with the CEO in advance of those meetings to understand what was coming up on the agenda, and to ask whether there were any specific issues related to coordination that she wished me to raise in my comments.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
That's fair enough.
How often would these meetings happen? Was it once a week, twice a week, once a month or once every quarter?
As an Individual
My memory, Chair, is that meetings happened roughly monthly. However, I do not have minutes of the meetings, so I can't recall specifically. That information would be readily available.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Thank you, Mr. Noseworthy.
Mr. Chair, I, too, would like to move a new motion:
That, notwithstanding any previous decision of the committee,
a. The committee agree to conduct two more meetings on Report 6, Sustainable Development Technology Canada, for the purposes of hearing from Zoë Kolbuc, Leah Lawrence, and the Minister of Innovation, Science, and Industry;
b. At the conclusion of the second meeting, the committee provide drafting instructions to the analysts on the final report of the study; and,
c. That no more meetings be conducted on Report 6, Sustainable Development Technology Canada.
Mr. Chair, I don't provide advice, but I'm sure you will suspend. I will send you that in writing, in both official languages.
November 27th, 2024 / 6:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Mr. Drouin, is your questioning of Mr. Noseworthy done?
If it is, all right.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Can you send that in?
I'm going to suspend again.
Mr. Noseworthy, in the meantime, you are excused. I appreciate your coming in and your participation in this study. If there's any additional information that you'd like to submit to the clerk or if any has been asked of you today—I don't believe there was—you can send it to the clerk.
For now, sir, you are excused. Thank you for your time this evening.
I'm going to suspend, and I'll be back in a few minutes. I'll explain how this meeting is going to proceed after that.
Thank you very much.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
I'll bring the meeting back to order.
There is already a lengthy speaking list.
I'll begin with Mr. Nater on the motion that has been distributed to members.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
I'm sorry, Chair, I thought Frankie—Mr. Drouin—was going to speak to it.
