Evidence of meeting #155 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was edc.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Hogan  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I now call this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 155 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we begin, I would ask all in-person participants to read the guidelines written on the updated cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents, and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including our interpreters. I kindly remind all those in person and online that, for the safety of our interpreters, it is very important that your microphone is muted when you are not speaking.

I thank you all for your co‑operation.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is resuming consideration of the 2024 reports 8 to 12 of the Auditor General of Canada.

I would like welcome our witnesses from the Office of the Auditor General.

We have Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada. Thank you for coming in today and bringing your entire team.

I'll run through them here: Andrew Hayes, deputy auditor general; Mélanie Cabana, principal; Jean Goulet, principal; Sami Hannoush, principal; Gabriel Lombardi, principal; and Nicholas Swales, principal.

Thank you, all, for being here today.

Ms. Hogan, you have the floor for an opening presentation.

Karen Hogan Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Mr. Chair, I am pleased to be here today to discuss my fall reports, which were tabled in the House of Commons.

I would like to begin by acknowledging that we are gathered on the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

My office delivered five performance audit reports and a special examination report to Parliament today. The performance audit reports touch on whether government organizations are delivering expected results for Canadians.

Whether managing programs for seniors or youth, or supporting the economy through benefits or loan programs, or improving access to secure online services for everyone, government organizations should be diligent and transparent in their management of tax dollars.

In our first audit, we looked at whether Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada implemented the Industrial and Technological Benefits Policy so that its objectives were met.

The policy requires that companies who are awarded defence contracts also invest in Canada for an equal amount. During the period we audited, it applied to 99 procurements totalling at least $39 billion.

Overall, we found that the department could not demonstrate that the policy met its objectives. The department had not established clear rules and guidance for applying the policy, which led to inconsistencies. Of eligible procurements over $100 million, we found two in which the contractor's commitments were below 100% of the contract value, and eight that included no obligations at all.

We also found that the department lacked effective ways to measure the policy's economic benefits and the creation of jobs, and that it did not track the potential impacts of the policy on defence procurement.

Given the extent of obligations for contractors under the Industrial and Technological Benefits Policy, it is important that Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada has effective ways to show whether the policy contributes to jobs, innovation, and economic growth.

Our next audit examined the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat’s efforts to lead the development of a national approach for digitally validating a person’s identity. A national approach is important to ensure seamless and secure access to online services in the public and private sectors for Canadians across the country.

We found that the secretariat had delayed work on a national approach because of a lack of funding. However, it had worked with Employment and Social Development Canada and with Shared Services Canada on a needed component of a national approach, which was a one-stop online sign-in system that validates a person's identity to access federal services. This would replace the almost 90 separate sign-in portals currently managed by individual federal departments.

Some provinces and territories have begun implementing their own identity and access management programs. This means that digital access across levels of government is evolving without common parameters or guidance. A national approach would ensure the interoperability of secure and reliable identity validation systems across public and private sectors.

As we concluded our audit, it was unclear whether the development of a national approach would proceed and whether the transition to a new federal sign-in system could be funded without presenting an unmanageable financial burden on federal organizations.

Our other 3 audits examined programs and services that directly support people and businesses in Canada. The first of these, the Canada Summer Jobs program, provides subsidies to eligible employers to create jobs for youth aged 15 to 30.

We worked with Statistics Canada to analyze available data and found that youth benefit from this program. While many factors influence long-term employment results, our analysis shows that after 9 years, participants in the Canada Summer Jobs program earned on average almost $6,000 more per year than non‑participants. We also found that since 2008, youth facing barriers have not been well represented in the program, which is concerning because the program is meant to prioritize work opportunities for this group.

We found that Employment and Social Development Canada did not collect or analyze data to know how many summer jobs the funding created or to report on long-term outcomes for participants in the program. Given the benefits that this program delivers, the department needs to use data to improve the success of all youth in the labour market, including priority groups.

Our next audit examined programs to support seniors. In 2023, there were 7.5 million people over the age of 65 in Canada, a total that could almost double within 20 years.

In 2018, Employment and Social Development Canada was tasked with supporting the Minister of Seniors to better understand and to meet the needs of seniors. We found that the department did not have a complete picture of the issues faced by seniors or of the programs in place across Canada to serve them.

The Old Age Security program is meant to strengthen seniors’ income security. We found that the department could not show whether the basic level of payment under the program was sufficient to support seniors’ financial needs. Although Old Age Security payments are regularly adjusted for inflation by using the Consumer Price Index, the department could not show whether seniors faced a different level of inflation than Canadians in general.

We also found that the department had not set itself up to successfully measure outcomes under the New Horizons for Seniors Program. The department relied on information in applications to measure the impact of the program without knowing if funded projects delivered the intended results.

As the population of seniors in Canada continues to grow, Employment and Social Development Canada needs to strengthen its analysis to ensure that support programs are meeting the evolving needs of seniors.

Our final audit examined the Canada Emergency Business Account Program, or CEBA. This program was put in place during the COVID‑19 pandemic to help small Canadian businesses cover expenses they could not defer.

We found that Export Development Canada, EDC, acted quickly to provide $49.1 billion in loans to help almost 900,000 small businesses across Canada. However, the program was not managed with due regard for value for money.

We found significant weaknesses in EDC's contract management. It relied on a single vendor, Accenture, to deliver the program. The non-competitive contracts awarded to Accenture represented 92% of the total value of $342 million in contracts related to the CEBA program.

EDC gave too much control to Accenture over key aspects of contracts, such as the scope of work and pricing. EDC failed to exercise basic controls in contract management, such as monitoring whether amounts paid aligned with the work performed. Since ongoing program delivery uses Accenture's proprietary IT systems, EDC will have to rely on these non-competitive contracts until at least 2028.

We also found that neither the Department of Finance nor Global Affairs Canada provided effective oversight of value for money. There was an accountability void that resulted in basic program elements, including measuring outcomes, being delayed or not completed. Finance Canada did not challenge EDC’s administrative spending, or provide an overall spending limit.

As of March 31, 2024, that spending totalled $853 million.

While 91% of loans were issued to eligible businesses, we estimated that about $3.5 billion went to ineligible recipients.

I am concerned that EDC only partially agreed with our recommendation that it should carry out additional work to identify all ineligible recipients and recover the amounts involved.

Unlike other COVID-19 programs, CEBA is a loan program with repayments that will be ongoing for several years, while action on defaulted loans is just beginning. Value for money will be further compromised without better monitoring and improved plans to recover on defaulted loans.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening remarks. We are now pleased to answer any questions committee members may have.

Thank you.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much, Auditor General.

It's my intention to get through two full rounds, which will take us to about 12:20, I expect. The first round will consist of four members with six minutes each, although members can split their time.

I understand, Mr. Hallan, that you'll be opening up for us today.

You have the floor for six minutes, please.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

Thanks, Chair.

Ms. Hogan, thank you to you and your team for putting this report together.

Once again, we're here talking about another sad example of Liberal waste and abuse of taxpayer money and pure government incompetence, just like what we saw with CERB and again with arrive scam. This time, it's $3.5 billion in CEBA loans that went to ineligible recipients.

Ms. Hogan, is this incompetence not due to lack of proper oversight and a lack of safeguards with taxpayers' money?

11:30 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I think the first thing I would want to point out about the Canada emergency business account was the speed at which $49 billion of loans went out to businesses—waiting less than a month is very quick—but the rollout of this program did have some questionable elements when it came to contract management by Export Development Canada.

While 91% of loans went to eligible businesses, we did identify that $3.5 billion went to ineligible businesses. Export Development Canada has already started to recover some of those, but I am concerned that they have partially disagreed with or only partially accepted our recommendation about following up on this concern. This lack of following up concerns me.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

Right, but was this not because of a lack of safeguards?

11:30 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Well, issuing loans to ineligible recipients is about having payment controls. Like most COVID programs, this one, too, had limited prepayment controls. While there were some validation checks, loans did go out to ineligible businesses.

What we did see EDC do, however, was adjust at the beginning and start doing post-payment work, which was different compared to other COVID programs.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

I'm sorry. I have a limited amount of time, so I have to move on.

We know Accenture was given, once again, a sole-source contract by the Liberals. This is a multinational corporation that was awarded a sole-source contract. Almost 92% of contracts went to them to, once again, cover up the incompetence of the ministers on the Liberal side. This company took Canadians to the cleaners. Almost $300 million went to Accenture.

What did Canadians get for that? Does it not say that giving a sole-source contract to Accenture means this government bungled the program?

11:35 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

This is a different program than other COVID programs. Here, we saw a Crown corporation delivering a program that, normally, we would expect to see delivered by the public service. Because of that, I would have expected better oversight by the Department of Finance and by Global Affairs. They really failed in their responsibility to exercise oversight over that Crown.

The EDC decided to issue non-competitive contracts to Accenture. I'm concerned about the overreliance they have on this one single vendor. The lack of oversight by departments is such that bad decisions are not being questioned. I would have expected better for the use of public funds.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

You said in previous reports that the government can't use COVID as an excuse for this kind of incompetence.

Is this not another example of that happening again?

11:35 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I would expect a basic level of due diligence and monitoring, regardless of the situation. What we saw here was poor contract management by Export Development Canada, and a lack of oversight by federal departments of a Crown corporation administering a significant COVID support program.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you.

Mr. McCauley, I understand that you're going to pick it up from here. You have two minutes and 15 seconds. The floor is yours.

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Yes, thanks.

AG Hogan, thanks very much.

Quickly, on the public accounts, last Wednesday at the Senate finance committee, a senior TBS official said that “the Public Accounts have been transmitted to the Auditor General”.

Do you have the final version of the public accounts yet?

11:35 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I expect to receive the final version of the financial statements today. That was what I was informed of at the end of last week.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

They did not, as TBS said, send you the public accounts for final sign-off.

11:35 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

We don't have the final statements. Our audit is ongoing. Obviously, we work with different versions, but we don't have the final ones.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Thanks. I question why the Treasury Board would state that publicly.

However, thanks for your work on the CEBA. We spent a long time on ArriveCAN. Just when you can't get a worse report than ArriveCAN, along comes EDC saying, “Hold my beer.”

There is a line from your report that says:

Accenture was involved in proposing the solutions to implement program changes, determining contract scope and prices with little challenge from EDC.

Can you expand on that? This seems very much like GC Strategies being involved in setting up RFPs that only they could win.

11:35 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

These contracts were all issued in a non-competitive fashion to Accenture. We concluded that EDC handed over too much control to this vendor.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Did they violate procurement rules by allowing Accenture to basically choose themselves for subcontracting?

11:35 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

A Crown corporation isn't subject to the government's procurement rules. They have their own set of rules for—

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

However, that doesn't allow them to throw away taxpayers' money by giving business to themselves and setting their own prices.

11:35 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I agree.

There was an overreliance on hourly-based contracts, which is not what you would typically see in the public service. Having a fixed price is the better approach to ensure better value for money. EDC handed over too much control in those hourly contracts, saying, “Help us with the scope, and how much will this cost?” I would have expected much better from the public service when it comes to managing a contract.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I would have expected the public service not to give a contract to Accenture and tell them, “You can take taxpayers' money, hire your own self, set your own prices and decide how much taxpayers will pay for those services.”

Would you not?

11:35 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

You're highlighting a process where EDC, the Department of Finance and Global Affairs identified the need to move to a competitive process, because they were concerned about the overreliance on Accenture.

EDC, however, turned to Accenture and asked them to run a mini-competitive process to find a vendor to develop a loan accounting software. In the end, what happened is that a recommendation was made to provide the work to a wholly-owned subsidiary of Accenture. In effect, they ran a competition, then received the contract. That is unacceptable in—

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

It sounds like fraud. That sounds like fraud.