Evidence of meeting #156 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was edc.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
I'll just turn, then, to Ms. Lavery or whoever feels they are best able to answer that.
Why was this contract handled in this way? I know you didn't have the capacity to do the whole project, but I would assume that EDC at least has the capacity to write even fairly complicated contracts.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Export Development Canada
Mr. Moore can talk to you about our contracting. You are correct. We have that ability and, in fact, ensured that we did provide the terms and conditions. It was the joint work on the scope of what was actually needed to be included that was worked with Accenture.
Mr. Moore, would you like to add something?
Executive Vice-President, Finance and Chief Financial Officer, Export Development Canada
I would just add that that's, indeed, correct. The actual final pricing was EDC's pricing. The terms were EDC's terms. The contract was ours. Certainly, we did work together with the vendor on the implementation planning, given the scale of the program and the speed at which we were trying to get it done.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Then you didn't think that, say, allowing an hourly basis for the contract was maybe a bit or a lot risky versus some set price.
Executive Vice-President, Finance and Chief Financial Officer, Export Development Canada
We have a strong preference for deliverables-based contracts, and that is true overall. In this case, the number of changes to the program is an important reminder for all of us. I mean, during the beginning of the program, the application deadline was changed five times. The criteria were changed multiple times. The program was expanded multiple times, so the scope was not clear as we worked our way through, really, the first two years of the program. Fixed deliverables are appropriate in most cases, when the scope is clear. The scope of the work was not clear for a very long period of time, which is why we went with the time-based and materials-based contract, which, again, is not our preference.
As we worked our way later into the program for the collections phase, unfortunately there were a number of changes around collections in terms of what would be required and what the repayment dates would be. That also made it very hard to get to a scope that enabled a deliverables-based contract. The Auditor General has identified that, indeed, now that we have gotten to 2024, with the scope much clearer, we have moved to a deliverables-based contract.
I would also note that we've issued an RFP for some of the services. The call centre and customer service, notably, have gone out to an RFP. We are moving in the direction of the recommendations of the Auditor General, which, again, we acknowledge.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
We'll turn now to Mr. Nater for five minutes, please.
You have the floor.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the Office of the Auditor General and the Auditor General for joining us in person, and to the representatives from EDC for joining us virtually.
Mr. Moore, could you inform this committee where the EDC headquarters is located?
Executive Vice-President, Finance and Chief Financial Officer, Export Development Canada
The EDC headquarters is located in Ottawa.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
It's about 450 metres from Parliament Hill, in fact, sir, so it is somewhat disappointing that, considering you personally seem to charge thousands of dollars to show up to your job in Ottawa, you wouldn't do us the courtesy of coming to speak with us in person since this is such an important matter.
Also, of course, Ms. Lavery, you seem to have no problem charging $18,000 to go to Japan for a couple of days, $16,000 to go to South Korea and $19,000 to travel to Australia. However, the lack of courtesy to show up in person to account for this major and damning report is unfortunate.
Ms. Lavery, paragraph 8.52 of the report says that “EDC identified and referred 17 cases of fraud to law enforcement.” What was the dollar value of those cases?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Export Development Canada
The dollar value of those was just close to $1 million.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
It was $1 million.
When were those cases referred to law enforcement?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Export Development Canada
I don't have that information in front of me. I can provide that to the clerk.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Yes, we would like that referred back to the clerk within an appropriate time.
What follow-up has happened since then? Have there been any criminal charges laid on those matters?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Export Development Canada
The RCMP doesn't provide us with details of its follow-up actions, so I'm not aware of what actions may have been taken.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
What encounters have you personally had with the RCMP since those matters were referred?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Export Development Canada
I've had no encounters with the RCMP.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Are you aware of whether the RCMP has requested any information from EDC since the original referral of this information?
December 4th, 2024 / 5:30 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Export Development Canada
The RCMP works with EDC by producing production orders on EDC with respect to certain files. We have received production orders, and the information that has been requested has been provided.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Of the ineligible loans to the tune of $3.5 billion—obviously, we know that those loans were partially forgivable—are you able to provide this committee with how much of that forgivable portion was indeed received by these ineligible recipients and with the efforts EDC has made to collect that forgivable portion from ineligible recipients?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Export Development Canada
EDC is in the process of collecting from the ineligible population. We are working very hard on that. We estimate that over $2 billion has been repaid from the ineligible population. We also agree with the Auditor General's recommendation on working with Finance Canada to consider next steps with respect to the forgiveness that you describe in your question.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Are you not able to provide us with the amount that was the forgivable portion of that amount?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Export Development Canada
No, I'm not, with respect to the repayment.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Can you follow up with the committee on that information?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Export Development Canada
Yes. We're working with Finance Canada to determine the actions with respect to that population.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
The AG report states the following on page 23:
From April to November 2023, our analysis identified some discrepancies in the hours charged on the invoices, primarily that EDC seems to have paid an average of 14 hours per agent per day when the call centre was only open for 9 hours. EDC did not identify these discrepancies at the time of payment.
What was the additional cost of those hours that were paid for time that the call centre wasn't actually open?