Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 18th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Good morning, everyone.

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 159 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we begin, I'd like to ask all in-person participants to read the guidelines written on the updated cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and protect the health and safety of all participants, especially our interpreters. I'll give a kind reminder to all those in person and online that for the safety of our interpreters, it is very important that your microphone is muted when you're not speaking.

Thank you for your co‑operation.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is beginning consideration of the Public Accounts of Canada 2024, referred to the committee on Tuesday, December 17, 2024.

I'll first announce the witnesses, and I'll have a couple of words to say to pre-empt any comments.

I thank you all for agreeing to come in on such short notice. I appreciate it, as do all members.

From the Office of the Auditor General, we have Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada. Thank you to you and your team. We also have Andrew Hayes, deputy auditor general; Sana Garda, principal; and Etienne Matte, principal.

From the Department of Finance, we have Chris Forbes, deputy minister. It's good to see you again.

Finally, from the Treasury Board Secretariat, we have Annie Boudreau, comptroller general of Canada. Good day. It's nice to see you and your team this morning. They are Blair Kennedy, executive director, government accounting policy and reporting, and John Daley, senior director, public accounts and advisory services.

I have a couple of comments before I hear your points of order or points of protest on the 2024 public accounts.

These documents were tabled yesterday, which was the very last day Parliament was sitting. As long as I have been chair, this committee, in report after report, has been urging and calling for these documents to be tabled by the end of September. They're typically tabled at some time in October or early November. This call has had cross-party support.

I'm going to let members probe our witnesses today as to why they've come so late, but if you're protesting us sitting after yesterday, I would urge you to direct your questions to cabinet ministers for not managing this document so that it was presented to Parliament in a timely manner to ensure that members and the public have the accountability and transparency they deserve.

On that note, I'm going to turn things over to our witnesses, who will each be given time to speak if they choose to take it.

Ms. Hogan, you have the floor for up to—

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Go ahead on a point of order.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Chair, I respect that you may complain about the tardiness of the tabling of public accounts. They were done according to the Standing Orders.

My issue is not with the witnesses being here, but out of respect for the witnesses who are here, you called this meeting last minute with less than 24 hours' notice. You and I have had these discussions before. It's disrespectful of us. It's a disrespect to our committee.

The tabling of the documents happened yesterday, and we have to allow members to prepare themselves to ask the right questions. Here we are again at your will. You didn't consult anyone. I didn't receive any emails from you.

Why do you not consult with the committee? Why do you not respect the will of committee?

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

When committee meetings are called, it's an important exercise, I understand, but be respectful of members. You are not respectful of members and I'm losing confidence in you, Chair, because in 10 years, I've never gone through this before.

I've had only two meetings with less than 24 hours' notice. One was in October when you called—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I have point of order, Chair.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

You put up a notice of meeting with less than one hour's notice, and you put up a notice of meeting with less than 24 hours's notice. It's disrespectful to us as committee members. That's not how we operate. I've been on the government operations committee with Mr. McCauley as opposition chair, but never has that chair done this. It's disrespectful of our time. I don't mind doing this exercise, but give us at least 48 hours. We require a notice of meeting to be tabled with 48 hours' notice.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. I—

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I'm warning you that it won't go well today because you're disrespectful of us.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Drouin.

Ms. Rempel Garner has a point of order.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I will just say, on his point of order, that this is getting into the realm of debate.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Drouin, I was not able to provide 48 hours' notice because it was not known if the public accounts were going to be tabled yesterday. As soon as I knew, we confirmed with the departments and they were all willing to be here. I don't think it's asking too much for members of this committee to be here as well if officials can be here to speak about this document.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

On a point of order, Chair, I would like to seek some clarification from the clerk.

I want to know when invitations were sent out to the officials. We received such short notice, so how short was the notice they received to be here and for you to get resources for the room? I would like to know.

I have had this conversation with the committee time and time again for the amount of time I've been on this committee, and every single time, you give us the runaround. Quite frankly, you are quite tyrannical in how you operate this committee. It is really unfair to—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to our witnesses very soon.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'm not finished. I'm seeking clarification.

When exactly were invitations to officials sent out? Were they also given less than 24 hours? That was the notice we received.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

On a point of order, Chair, this is debate, and you're not required to provide such information.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I have no problem being in this committee. I have no problem doing the work of this committee, and I have shown that. I have proven that in many ways by building consensus among all parties to try to pass motions to get work done.

The reality is that in the time I've been on this committee, we have had more meetings and fewer reports than ever in public accounts. That's a failure on your part, Chair. I wish we could stop playing partisan politics.

I would like some answers, please. I would love the clerk to help us clarify when the invitations to officials were sent out.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I asked the clerk to put the officials on notice on Monday that, if the public accounts came in, we would look to bring them in on Wednesday. Once we had an indication that they were available and confirmations began to come in, you saw the first notice. We had, I think, two departments with TBCs, and they were filled out in the morning.

There's no skulduggery here. If the government had done its job and tabled these documents in a timely manner, we would have dealt with them in a timely manner. I am put in this corner because of the actions of the government and the delay of this report.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

No, absolutely not.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

You're put in this corner because that's how you behave.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Drouin, it's not my job to march to the government's beat.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

It's not the government's beat. It's the members' beat. You're disrespectful.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Drouin, it's not my intent to be disrespectful.