Public Accounts Committee on June 7th, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I actually meant to cut that off, but I was on mute, so, Mr. Desjarlais, you eked out a few extra seconds there.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

My cellphone let me add it on.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You're welcome to come back to this in your next round.

We turn now Mr. Duncan.

You have five minutes for questions, please.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Given the opportunity to continue on a few different things here, I will address my colleague from the NDP's comments about denial and delay. We heard a lot of huff and puff there, a lot of righteous indignation about criticism from other parts. I would argue, and I'm saying here, that there is no denial or a delay here. I think the question to the commissioner that I have been asking is about how the denial, or the reality that we face in reducing emissions, is an international challenge and that we have to look at in that context.

Mr. DeMarco, I asked in my opening round about whether we ought to look at the production and emissions of other countries I listed that are filling the gap of where Canadian energy is not going. I'm very proud as a Canadian of our energy sector in this country, and particularly of the frontline worker and making sure they're supported with paycheques here, as opposed to others around the world. But we live in denial if we think that when we cancel a project here that this same project just won't happen elsewhere. We are seeing the reality of companies moving to other countries that don't have the same focus, that don't have a commissioner such as you, and don't have that same emphasis on environmental targets. We try to feel good here in Canada, and we're losing good Canadian paycheques and jobs here and they're going to countries and companies around the world that don't give two hoots about what we're talking about here.

I do think living in denial amounts to two things. One is acknowledging that when we scrap projects here in this country, they just go away and that the environment gets better. Your report confirms that it does not, but it also confirms that we're not tracking the decisions we're making in Canada and the impacts they're having on global emissions, because they're going to other countries that don't have the same environmental standards, net zero, carbon capture, and all these environmental aspects. The reality is, for all that huff and puff, we are going to see the NDP, tonight in a confidence vote, and for the next three years, vote with the Liberals and again see very little change.

I'll just go to my question and this is a question for Mr. Hannaford, just to test this.

The tone and the status quo of what I'm hearing here is about discontinuing. The commissioner referenced that the legislation to support workers was not available. It was supposed to be tabled in the fall. The one thing that was missing, in the comments you made today, was an actual timeline of when the legislation is going to be ready, when it's going to be tabled to come to Parliament. We heard beforehand of changes in the consultations process, and all of these things. We see the damning report by the commissioner, and in the response today, I, frankly, think we're getting the status quo of no timelines and no plans to actually bring something forward. There have been consultations, discussions and so forth, and we've known about the problem for years.

Can you give a date of when the legislation will be tabled in Parliament to actually move support for workers forward? I just want a date.

[John Hannaford]

The International Labour Organization, which is one of the sources of expertise with respect to a just transition, emphasizes the importance of social engagement with respect to development of policies. We are taking that very seriously and are working, as I say, through an extensive consultation process that will manifest itself then in the “What We Heard” report in the fall, with legislation to follow. We want to make sure that we get this right, and that is something we are pursuing with vigour.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Will it be tabled before we rise, or in September or October?

[John Hannaford]

Our objective is to draw from what the consultation process provides and to have legislation that will reflect the interests that best serve Canada. That will happen in due course. It is something we are treating as a priority.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I didn't hear a date there or a time frame. That was an issue before, and there's still not one going forward, so I will note that the NDP will continue to be supporting the Liberals in confidence votes on this plan going forward.

The other thing I would ask the commissioner about, in my time remaining, is performance metrics. One of the things we just dealt with in the climate change report before was the federal government having committed to increasing its emissions-reduction targets from 40% to 45%. The report noted that no measuring mechanism was actually implemented to measure the progress.

Mr. DeMarco, when we talk about these measuring tools, can you confirm that you're still lacking even the ability to measure the progress or lack of progress being made when it comes to emissions reductions?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I will need a 10-second answer, please.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

We have several concerns about the government's ability to track emissions in a timely manner. We received just recently the 2020 data on emissions. We get financial information quarterly from the government, and that's a big part of our office's work.

We would like to see environmental information being made available in a more timely manner. That way we would be able to track things more quickly and see what's working.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to pause for a second before I go to our next witness.

Clerk, whenever someone on Zoom answers a question, we're getting a very loud sound in our ears as if it's coming from the committee floor. I don't know if you're hearing the room there, but it's jarring, and I think it's very hard on the ears.

Could you have the technical team there try to clean that up? I have not noticed it before, although I don't often do these meetings remotely, but I can tell that some of our witnesses are having trouble. It's both jarring in the ear and interrupting their chain of thought.

If that could be cleaned up, please, I think it would be appreciated by everybody who is on the line. I see Mr. DeMarco nodding as well. I can tell that it is having an impact on the answers from our witnesses.

If there's anything that I need to see, Clerk, just send me a text and we will suspend if we have to. I will turn now to Mr. Dong.

Mr. Dong, it's over to you. You have the floor for five minutes.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I too want to thank the witnesses and welcome the new members joining us today.

Before I ask questions, I want to correct my NDP colleague. He said in the previous rounds that we are killing the planet. We can't kill the planet. The planet will still be here. It's the next generations that we have to worry about, and he probably would agree with me.

That leads to my observation here today. It's fascinating to talk about what happened or has happened in the last eight years, but what's even more fascinating is that my Conservative colleagues on this committee are still having this policy debate.

The Paris Agreement happened many years ago. I recognize the need for a just transition for the workforce. In November 2016, as noted here in the report, the federal government announced that it would be amending its existing coal-fired electricity regulation to accelerate the phase-out of traditional coal-fired electricity in Canada. I know that predominantly four provinces are affected.

As I go through the report, I read that Alberta and Saskatchewan are accelerating the phasing-out of coal-fired generation and in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick it will probably be a few years before that kicks in. That makes me wonder, in terms of phasing out coal and transiting the workforce, which one is the horse and which one is the carriage, because if it takes a few years for a certain province to phase out coal generation, the workers are still there.

I'm not arguing with the fact that we need to build a framework and have a governance structure to help these workers to transition and help these communities transition. They are very much included in the whole plan. As I was going through the report—

By the way, I just want to confirm something with the commissioner.

In the last eight years, is this the first audit you have done on the just transition?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Yes, it is.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I see that in October 2018 there were announcements about programs. The coal transition program, for example, delivers funding for 67 projects to support communities in transition. Up to 87% of these millions of dollars in funding from this program have been disbursed.

My first question is for Mr. Hannaford. Can you talk a bit about these coal transition programs and what they are? What is this $25 million and $10 million? Are these put in place to support the transition of workers?

[John Hannaford]

As I mentioned in one of my earlier comments, we highlighted some of the outcomes of the funding provided through colleagues in the regional development agencies.

Perhaps I will turn to them for more detailed information about some of those projects. Mr. McGuire—

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

If you don't mind, could you send us a written response?

Earlier, I talked about the issue of what is the horse and what is the carriage. ESDC won't have a very solid timeline if they don't know when a certain province is phasing out coal generation and when the workforce will be affected.

What's the plan going forward? What's the timeline for working with the provinces to phase out coal generation? Can you tell us this for the four provinces, one by one?

[John Hannaford]

The overall objective in phasing out—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Please wait one second, Mr. Hannaford.

Madam Clerk, we're still getting that audio shock whenever there's a response by a witness.

I'm going to suspend the meeting until this can be resolved, because it is jarring on the ear.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I've paused you, Mr. Dong. You have about 45 or 50 seconds left. I'm not eating into your time.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I do want this resolved, if that can be done and we can find a solution. If we have to take a breath for two seconds before we begin again....

Some instructions, Madam Clerk, would be helpful, when you have an answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll turn now to Mr. Hannaford.

You were just about to respond to Mr. Dong.

There are 50 seconds remaining on the clock, Mr. Dong.

Mr. Hannaford, it's over to you.

[John Hannaford]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The commitment is to phase out coal-generated electricity by 2030. We are working with each of the provinces, through a number of different tracks, in order to achieve that objective.

Perhaps I can turn to my colleague Mr. McGuire for a very quick description of how some of these projects are contributing to our overall objective, but I will conclude my remark in the interest of time.

[Francis P. McGuire]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In our case, again, we are not going to see any layoffs from the coal-generating facilities for some time—five or six years—and in fact we don't think there will be any, because the utilities—and we work closely with them—will seek to retain those people and redeploy them. There will be some early retirements as well.

For instance, with ESDC, in this particular case we haven't engaged as much as we have in other instances with government. We are developing long-term plans for each community. I want to come back to our role being very micro: It is five strategies for five communities that are all different.

They all have measurables. They all have distinct strategies that we've agreed to with the communities, so at the micro level that we're working at, we are very much in touch and working with industries such as bioprocessing in Cape Breton, which has, particularly since COVID—and we're lucky we got started before COVID—real implications. We've seen real successes in terms of attracting other monies into things, and this is tied to the labour force that's coming out of the Cape Breton University that works in this bioprocessing.