Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 28th, 2022

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you for the question.

I think two things.

One, the department has, indeed, noticed an increase in tempo in terms of the number and frequency of responses to domestic events. It is something we factor into our operations, both domestic and abroad.

I don't think it will totally answer the question posed by the member here, Mr. Chair, but I think it might be worth my colleague Nancy spending two minutes talking about the plans the navy and the air force have to decarbonize in early days. I think it would be worth it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I am going to have to not allow that just because the member's time has expired. Another member might come back to you on that, or we could request that you perhaps submit something in writing. We could do that, but I'm afraid I just don't have that time to allot.

I'm going to turn now to—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Mr. Chair, could we get that in writing? Did you say we could get that in writing? Yes? That would be perfect.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

If you could provide some background information to the committee, that would be very, very helpful.

I'm going to turn now to MP Kram.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to continue with the witnesses from National Defence.

Let's say it's the year 2050. The F-35 fighter jets are still in the air, and we're still sailing our frigates, but we don't have a way to fully decarbonize them. What does the carbon offset market look like for those military assets?

[Bill Matthews]

Mr. Chair, I think it's too early for us to speculate about what the market might look like in 2050. I think, if it's relevant, we can have Nancy talk about the decarbonization plans, but in terms of comments in the market, it's too early to say.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

With all due respect, I would like to stick with the carbon offset market.

I would like to make sure I understood an answer to Mr. McCauley's question a bit earlier about the location of fuel purchases for the frigates.

It was my understanding that if the fuel is purchased in Canada, it counts against Canada's emissions, but if the fuel is purchased in another country, it counts against that other country's emissions. Is that correct?

[Saleem Sattar]

To be clear, we are tracking only fuel purchased by DND and the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Okay. Is that from Canada or from other countries as well?

[Saleem Sattar]

I don't have that information right now.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Okay. If we could get that answer in writing, that would be very helpful. Thank you.

[Saleem Sattar]

Sure. Yes.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Let us just think about this for a minute. Let's say it's 2050, and we have to meet our zero-emission targets, and a war breaks out, and we have to bomb an enemy oil refinery or something like that. How does that work? Do we have to plant so many trees based on how many enemy oil refineries we bomb? How could that possibly work?

[Bill Matthews]

I think the methodology we're talking about today, Mr. Chair, is around the impact from the operations. I can't speculate on how one might count for that type of event. I'm not sure the methodology has evolved that far, but we're very much focused on tracking our own emissions from operations and, as I have mentioned, we still have some work to do on that.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Fair enough. I'll be curious to see how that plan shapes up.

If we go back to page 23 of the report and paragraph 2.78, it says:

We found that National Defence’s carbon plan aligned with the emission reduction targets outlined in the 2017 strategy, but that the actions in the plan were not detailed enough to indicate how the department would achieve the 2050 target.

I'll give you the opportunity now to elaborate on if there's anything else that needs to be said other than we're waiting for the new technologies and we're going to go into the carbon offset market if need be.

[Bill Matthews]

I have a little more detail. I think the message here is that we have more planning to do to identify more actions to get us there. I think the report is accurate that there are some plans that we still have to come forward with to identify how we will make 2050.

I'm thinking of more energy refits of buildings and the things we've already talked about today in terms of getting there, and you'll see the road map, the risks and all the things we've already talked about today be articulated over the next year to show how we intend to get there.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you very much.

In the time I have let, I'd like to turn to the representatives from the Treasury Board.

Could you speak to the projected costs per year of the net-zero plan?

[Malcolm Edwards]

We've had departments do decarbonization plans for their real property. We brought in an expert to aggregate those. Over a 30-year period to 2050, the incremental cost is $3 billion to decarbonize. That represents about one per cent of what we'd spend on real property over that period of time normally without decarbonization.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have about 40 seconds.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I'll turn it over to my colleague Garnett Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Kram, for your generosity.

I just want to follow up on my earlier questions about VIP travel.

Could the committee please be provided with information about the emissions associated with VIP travel, with the Prime Minister's and ministers' broken out specifically, with comparisons over time, let's say over the last five years?

Can we be provided with that information?

[Bill Matthews]

Mr. Chair, we'll take a look and see what we can provide based on our records.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, and that is the time.

I will turn now to Ms. Yip.

You have the floor for five minutes, and this will be the last question.