Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2022

[Roch Huppé]

I can't speak in this particular case for CRA, but generally speaking, you have higher chances of recouping an amount that is owed if you do it sooner rather than later. That's a general rule around receivables, obviously.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I understand that.

Would we have done an analysis of what these delays are going to cost the taxpayer?

[Roch Huppé]

We haven't, not to my knowledge. We'd have to ask the CRA if they have that data and analysis. We'll gladly do that.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay.

I have one last question regarding pension discounts. We spoke about it last Friday. It's one I've brought up before on the difference in the non-funded liabilities pension discount. We use real return, and of course there's the higher one for PSPIB. It's a really simple, or possibly too simple, question.

We're using a 5.8% discount rate. That's almost triple what we're using for the unfunded. Why don't we just cut a cheque to the Public Sector Pension Investment Board if they're getting these much better returns? Cut them a cheque. That way, it would reduce our liability, rather than continuing to use it as a 2% unfunded liability. Is it just a matter of it not being that simple an idea?

[Roch Huppé]

You would have to fund the unfunded, so I don't think it's that simple, to be fair.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

PSPIB is getting almost 6%, which is higher than what we're paying on interest rates. It's much higher on the discount rate for the unfunded.

Is it just a matter of it not being that easy a solution?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

It's not that easy. Thank you, Mr. McCauley.

We'll turn now to Mr. Fragiskatos. You have the floor for five minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This question goes to the Treasury Board.

I'm staying with volume I. On page 170, towards the end of the page, you'll see, under the heading “Public Services and Procurement”, a number of buildings listed. Many buildings, if not most, have a lengthy lease term. The inception dates are quite recent, beginning in 2021, for example. Overall, in general, the years are recent; 2014 is cited a few times, and so on and so forth.

Do you have information on the number of employees who have returned to those buildings to occupy them in full?

[Roch Huppé]

The buildings are not occupied in full, to be fair. Most organizations are working on bringing employees back to work in a hybrid fashion right now. Some departments—the Treasury Board Secretariat and the Department of Finance, for example—have asked their employees to come back at least two days a week. Other departments are testing other options. It could be eight days a month, or something different. Right now, we are working on bringing them back.

I have to say that no building is fully occupied right now. The point is that even before the pandemic, you had about a 40% vacancy rate in our buildings, because people were on vacation or on leave or were sick or travelling, etc. Again, there is a lot of work right now to rightsize the real property footprint and make sure we gain the efficiencies that are there.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I understand that. I wouldn't expect they would be occupied in full at this point in time.

I ask the question in light of the housing challenges we have in Canada. I'm thinking about the way the pandemic—especially with the turn towards hybrid—changed things in very dramatic ways. It's not just about how the public sector is approaching things like this, but also the private sector.

I'm wondering what will happen to those buildings. I know there have been a number of media stories talking about the possibility of these buildings being turned into housing—affordable housing in particular—for those in need. I just want to get your thoughts on where we are on that.

[Roch Huppé]

There's definitely a lot of work being done by Public Services and Procurement right now. They're the major owner of the office buildings. They are working on different plans. One option, as you're saying, is to hopefully turn some of these spaces into affordable housing.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

For the final question, I'll go to Auditor General Hogan.

We've talked about the differences between provincial and federal public accounts. I want to turn our attention to the international picture.

What, if anything, can Canada learn from other countries, in terms of how they approach their public accounts—things we don't do that they do? I would hope there is something, at least. I'm thinking of other democracies, in particular those operating in the Westminster parliamentary tradition. Are there things we can look to employ in order to improve our public accounts?

I think they're very good in terms of how they're approached, but there's always room for improvement, I'm sure.

[Karen Hogan]

I have to admit that I don't think I've studied the public accounts of other countries. I can talk a lot about ours, but I'm not sure I've studied many of the others.

I know that some of them do a good job of talking about risks in their financial statement discussion and analysis, about how risks are managed and going forward. The government has done a good job over the last few years in increasing that disclosure and being more transparent, but there are always, as you say, opportunities for improvement.

I think a great way that the Government of Canada could be a leader would be to start bringing out climate disclosures, and also to find a more accessible way for the public accounts to be ready more quickly. Maybe it's fewer volumes to be published. There are so many places that we could tap in to to increase the usability and speed at which they're available.

However, as I mentioned earlier, the federal public service does an excellent job in trying to get together a very complex set of financial statements.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

A clean opinion is a clean opinion, Mr. Chair. I'll leave it there.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

We ran late. I appreciate the witnesses coming in and being patient with us as we were voting, and staying for extra time. Thank you very much.

These were two good sessions. I want to thank you all for coming in.

With that, I'll adjourn the meeting.