Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 8th, 2022

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I will yield my time to Mr. Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Bragdon, I really appreciate that.

My riding of Northumberland—Peterborough South is close to several nuclear energy facilities where there are many great jobs. I'm also of the view that nuclear has to be a critical part of our future. I'm wondering if the commissioner could see if there is any way of achieving the target without at least continued if not greater reliance on nuclear power going forward.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Nuclear is part of the mix in several of the jurisdictions around the world, including provinces such as Ontario, which has a large amount of generation from nuclear as well as hydro and renewables. It took a lead in phasing-out coal. That was in response to an earlier question. It was one of the major provincial initiatives that had the effect of addressing greenhouse gas emissions.

I'm not a policy-making commissioner or a policy adviser commissioner. The role is to look at whether commitments are being met—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

No, no, excuse me, I'm sorry, but my time is short.

However, you are supposed to hold the government to account, and just like if I were looking at a financial statement, if I said there weren't bonds or there weren't stocks in a certain portfolio, we wouldn't be able to make our investment target.

This is more than a reasonable question, and one, quite frankly, you should be prepared to answer. I'm a little bit disappointed that you appear not to be.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

A point of order.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I am happy to answer.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Chair, I'm sorry. We have a respectful atmosphere in this committee. Badgering the witness is not congenial to that. I think Mr. Lawrence should apologize to the witness.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Thank you.

I'm prepared to elaborate a bit on that, because I don't know if I fully answered his question.

Madam Chair, may I proceed?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Yes, please go ahead.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

We touched on this a little earlier in the first hour. In the current mix, especially in Ontario and some other jurisdictions around the world, nuclear is a major part of a low-emissions grid. I foresee that continuing at least in the short-term.

Why I say I can't foresee the future all the way to 2050, and whether there will be other countries—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you, sir. I don't mean to interrupt, but my time is short.

In the absence of a great new technological development, we have three primary sources. One is renewables, which everyone here, I'm sure, would like to see more of, which include solar and wind. Unfortunately, they're intermittent technology. Then we have fossil fuels and then we have nuclear.

Right now—correct me if I'm wrong—if we want to reduce fossil fuel-generated energy, we need at least the same amount if not more nuclear, because, as I said, renewables are intermittent technologies, and we currently don't have the batteries to store their intermittent power. So we need nuclear and we need more nuclear.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

So is that a question?

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Yes. I want you to agree with me.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you on that. Policy choices are for the government, but they do have to add up. I'll agree with you on that, that the numbers do have to add up, and it is frustrating for Canadians to see that 30 years' worth of numbers in the plans have not added up in terms of results. The recipe going forward will surely change as technology improves, and, as you mentioned, energy storage, whether it's through batteries or reservoirs or something else, is crucial, as is conservation. We haven't talked much about that, but we also have to become much more efficient in how we use energy, of course.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Do I have any time left, Madam Chair? I have more questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Yes.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

With respect to resilience, I think this is an area in which we need greater investment. We've seen with China's recent announcement that they will not be investing in coal reduction. In fact they said it should be the developed nations—I believe those were the exact words—that are making these investments.

With that being said and China being one of the primary polluters, if you will, I don't see how we will hit our targets, our global targets, without China's help, so we need to brace for impact.

Is that not fair?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Because Canada and countries around the globe didn't act proactively enough on this when they had the chance several decades ago, we have to now work equally on the—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Excuse me, sir, but that's factually incorrect, right? Canada produces 3% of GHG emissions. It's less—2.6%—I'm told, so if we'd gone down to zero, we would still be on the same trajectory we are on, according to your views. Tell me, how much will the world be increasing in temperature and what will be the impacts if we don't reduce our GHG emissions? Canada's 3% won't make the difference.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

We're a globe with around 200 countries, and each one—this is the tragedy of the commons issue—can't solve this issue on its own, and all of the smaller nations by population can't just say they're small so they don't have to do anything. That's not an equitable approach to dealing with an international problem.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Just to be clear, sir, I wasn't saying that.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you. That's the end of the answer there. We're moving to Ms. Bradford for five minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you so much. I once again want to thank our witnesses for coming today.

I know it has been a long couple of hours, especially for you, Mr. DeMarco, and I just have a final question to wrap up.

I want to thank you for coming and speaking to this very important report about lessons learned. I think it's very clear that all of us, all countries in the world, and all of us individually as people and citizens of the world, and all industries and sectors are going to have to do their part if we're going to be successful in mitigating the damage of climate change. We have a lot of catching up to do and we need to get on with it.

So I am wondering, Mr. DeMarco, if you could indicate which of these eight lessons are going to be easier to implement and which of them will be the most challenging. Thank you.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Okay. Because of the time, I'll use examples rather than going through all eight.

It should be relatively easy to increase collaboration, especially within the federal government, and not to have, for example, Environment and Climate Change Canada pushing on one side of the rock and Natural Resources Canada pushing on the other side of the rock, which has happened in the past, as they are trying to push the rock up the hill, to use an analogy. So that's low hanging fruit, in one sense, for the government to get its act in order and to look at that in a horizontal or centralized manner.

Lesson number 8 is difficult. We have a lot of structures in society—governmental and non-governmental—that discount the future, as I mentioned, and it will be hard to have people think about long-term implications and not just think about them but act on them. So that's a challenge but I don't see a way out of this without really addressing that challenge.

You mentioned that this is a long two hours. I'm very pleased to have a non-partisan committee engaging on these issues. I'm happy to stay here the rest of the day if you want me to. It's good to see.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

That's a done deal. I'm enjoying it as well.

I'm sorry. I know that was out of order.