Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 25th, 2022

[Joanne Wilkinson]

That is a discussion that is led by the first nation. It's a decision that the first nation would need to make. We would never impose that on a nation.

It's a very active discussion. It has been a very active discussion in that community for many years.

I wouldn't qualify it as temporary, necessarily. The two years of on-the-land initiatives have been something that the community has requested. If they request it again this year and the risk continues to be high, then we would absolutely support them in undertaking that initiative.

Thank you.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Do you have any sense of how they might be trying to come together as a community to reach a decision? Are they thinking of doing a referendum on it?

You said they've been debating it for many years. I agree that it's their decision. You'd think they might want to make a decision so they could move forward.

[Joanne Wilkinson]

We've certainly supported them in terms of providing space and time for them to have some of those discussions. We've provided assistance to them in terms of some of the research that they might want to undertake, or those types of activities.

Again, it's really for the first nation to determine.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I agree. I know these things are really hard. It's just unfortunate to see them go through that same disruption over and over again. I've had a few flooded basements in my life, and that was minor compared to this.

What resources could help regional offices to assist them to establish or upgrade their regional plans? Who could answer that for us? Would that be the deputy minister?

[Gina Wilson]

We do have many regional plans in place. That's if you're referring to the plans and not the agreements.

Joanne, I'll turn to you again. You're regional operations. You know the regions. You'll probably answer better than I would.

[Joanne Wilkinson]

Absolutely, we are working actively with our regional offices. As Associate Deputy Minister Gideon mentioned, with the new indigenous services department, we have brought the health organization and the former Indian and Northern Affairs offices into one active discussion. We are working to ensure those plans are integrated from those organizations. We are ensuring there is collaboration. We are introducing some standard templates, those types of things, to make sure we have the information that's required to ensure they have the resources and they're able to support communities.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Would you say that the work of the OAG report aligns with the work already under way at the ISC? Could you provide us with some examples?

Again, I'm getting back to Ms. Wilson on that.

[Gina Wilson]

I actually did refer to that in my opening remarks. I do believe the seven recommendations do align with a lot of the work that we are undertaking. I actually find it quite helpful, particularly in the area of risk. I believe we have a better understanding of what the Auditor General is holding us to when it comes to a comprehensive and detailed risk register. When we have these conversations, the Auditor General is very open in terms of going back and forth, talking to us and giving us some understanding of the expectations. I certainly have found that very helpful.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Are the seven recommendations ranked in order of importance? Are they just random, or are all seven equally important, in your opinion?

[Karen Hogan]

Obviously, we think that all seven should be implemented. The time frame and what alignment works best for the department is up to the deputy minister, but all should be addressed, absolutely.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Again, getting back to Ms. Wilson, was there anything you would have liked to see in the report that you feel should be there but wasn't covered?

[Gina Wilson]

Well, for instance, I think the focus on first nation voices as full and equal partners, as well as other services providers.... To be very clear, ISC is not the sole service provider for emergency management services. Not to criticize the report, but I'm not sure if it comes across very clearly that we do not do direct delivery. The rationale behind that implies that we should be the delivery agent. I would advise that that would not be a good way to go, and probably not acceptable to first nations, which want to be self-determining in that respect.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you.

We'll now move to Mr. Kram, for five minutes.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you again to the witnesses for being here.

I would like to follow up regarding the Kashechewan First Nation. The Auditor General's report was covered on the news outlet TBnewswatch.com last week. The title of the article is “Hajdu accepts conclusions of AG report on First Nations emergency management”. The article reads, “and until a federal commitment to help the community move permanently to higher ground becomes a reality.”

The article implies that the first nation is waiting on a federal commitment to relocate it. Can the witnesses elaborate? Have you received an application from the Kashechewan First Nation?

[Gina Wilson]

No, we haven't, and I'll turn back to Joanne to respond. It's a very complex situation for both Kashechewan and Fort Albany first nations, in terms of making this really important decision.

[Joanne Wilkinson]

As I said, it has been an ongoing discussion among community members and with us over a number of years. Certainly, there was a previous comment that one would think there would be community ratification. They have done that before, in terms of looking at the options. There is no unanimity in terms of what the longer-term goal would be. Of course, relocating an entire community the size of Kashechewan is not a quick, simple, or inexpensive proposition.

In terms of looking at what planning would be necessary—should it be the community's confirmed desire to move to higher ground, and if it made that decision—there would need to be significant planning. There would need to be a significant funding envelope identified, which does not currently exist for that type of relocation. Certainly, as I said before, it is the lead of the first nation to determine its desire in that space.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Okay, but we just freed up $8 million a year, two years ago, for a community of 1,800 persons. Where are these complexities? What's the holdup?

That seems like a pretty straightforward thing to do to just relocate them to the same grounds that they are relocated to every year already. What seems to be the holdup?

[Joanne Wilkinson]

Well, I would say that the evacuation is not to a fully developed community. The community of Kashechewan has infrastructure, schools, housing and those types of things. The evacuation to higher land is to a camp that we bring in. We funded tents—not tents in the sense of a camping tent, but hard-walled tents—and infrastructure that is temporary and usable for spring.

It is not a permanent encampment piece that we have developed up there. It's not another community that they've gone to in order to evacuate, as they would to a community like Thunder Bay, for example. It is a temporary place for them to evacuate to for a specified amount of time. It's not a new community.

If they were to relocate permanently, that's part of the planning that would have to take place around the broader infrastructure: water treatment plants, schools, health services and all those types of things that don't exist permanently on the land that is used for the back-to-the-land evacuation.

Thanks.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

When was the last time anyone from the department talked with the Kashechewan First Nation about their plans?

[Joanne Wilkinson]

I know there have been ongoing discussions. I don't have a date for you, but we can certainly come back to you with a date. I would say that it would be within the last few months.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Yes, if you could provide that date for the committee, that would be helpful.

Can you walk the committee through what the process would be in terms of relocating to higher ground? Do you have to fill out a form? Do you have fill out a lengthy form? It seems like it should be simpler for a community of 1,800 persons that was forcibly relocated 65 years ago.

[Gina Wilson]

There's no form. There's no application or proposal or process. This happens very infrequently, and I would say that it is extremely complex to do because, first of all, as Joanne said, the community needs to make a decision and you have different views within the community on where to go, if they go, when they go and how they go. All of these elements need to be determined within the community.

I would say that our role would be to support that process, to be part of, as Joanne said, funding research—whatever is required. That has been the role of Indigenous Services. CIRNAC would be involved in that, too, because there would be land issues and so on. All that is to say, again, that it's not an application. It's not an easy process. It's an extremely complex one.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you.

We now move to Mrs. Shanahan for five minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Chair, I was trying to catch the eye of my colleague Mr. Desjarlais to see if he would like to share my time. That's for two and a half minutes.

This is a very important subject, and I think we all want to see progress. I am hearing some very good things in this room today: There seems to be all-party support that there needs to be more investment in this issue. Nobody wants to be penny-wise and pound foolish, if I can use that old saying. The money has to be put up front, and we'll reap the benefits later on.

Deputy Minister, I think you, in answer to a question, were talking about how nobody wants to see ISC as the delivery agent. Can you talk a bit more about that?

[Gina Wilson]

I guess one of the things Valerie Gideon mentioned was that Indigenous Services Canada is working hard towards service transfer, which means first nations running many of the services, programs and operations that we currently undertake.

Gone are the days when ISC will go into communities and deliver programs and services. Those days have gone way past. First nations would not appreciate that whatsoever—first nations that want to move to self-determination and take on control. But they want to be able to take on programs that are working, programs that are funded well and programs that will actually make a difference. The rationale that we should be the sole delivery agent would just not be acceptable.

On that basis, I would say that first nations are actively working with us in all parts of the country to look at taking on services and programs and to look at new funding agreements that offer them more flexibility. I think the work is very slow-moving. Personally, I would love to see things move a lot more quickly, but we move at a pace that is comfortable for first nations, and that's where we're at.