Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2022

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Wait, so is this the difference in the ECCC plan? You're telling me about the bottom-up analysis, which would be the incremental analysis, not the transformative one that NRCan put together. I'm getting a bit of a contradiction here.

[Derek Hermanutz]

I'm speaking of our Environment Canada modelling.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay. It differs strongly from the NRCan model, the transformative NRCan model. Is that correct?

[Derek Hermanutz]

It's a different exercise, as we said from the start.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have 30 seconds, Mr. McLean.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

The exercise is to come up with a realistic scenario about what this is going to cost Canadians, what this is going to cost the environment and how we actually attain the goal.

I'll ask other departments if they can put something reasonable on the table here about how we come to a result that ends up with actual decarbonization in the world.

[John Hannaford]

Mr. Chair, I would say that we are continuing to have our conversations with experts, with other departments and with the CER, all with a view to being as accurate as we can be as to this area.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. McLean. That is your time.

Mrs. Shanahan, did you have any more questions? The floor is yours.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I would just like to allow each department to summarize why they used different models, because I think that's the key here. Assumptions go with models, and models are attached to the strategy or the approach.

I'll go to the environment folks first. Can you explain the difference in modelling assumptions between your department and Natural Resources Canada?

[Christine Hogan]

Thank you. I always appreciate the opportunity to further clarify.

As I mentioned in my opening comments, Environment and Climate Change Canada's modelling, the modelling that's referenced in the commissioner's report, focused on a set of policies and measures contained in the strengthened climate plan, including a single proxy for a hydrogen strategy that was still under development at that time.

It's important to distinguish the modelling that NRCan did to develop its hydrogen strategy from the work that Environment Canada did to produce a model for a broad, comprehensive climate plan.

Hopefully, that helps clarify matters somewhat.

Also, I'll underline that the modelling Environment Canada undertakes for things like the strengthened climate plan or the emissions reduction plan is done following international guidelines that are established for reporting on progress related to Canadian targets.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

That's excellent.

If I can, then, I'll ask Mr. Hannaford if he can summarize why NRCan took the approach that it did in modelling.

[John Hannaford]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Our intention through the hydrogen strategy was to create a call to action, which was to show the potential of this area of energy generation. This was something that was a product of analysis that was done, as my colleague mentioned, through a series of consultations with experts.

We continue to do that consultation. That's one of the reasons why we are committed to a progress report, which will further refine the picture that we have been painting with respect to the future of hydrogen, and we'll continue to work with our colleagues at Environment and Climate Change Canada and with the Canada Energy Regulator.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

That's excellent. Thank you.

I'd like to go back to Environment Canada.

What are some of the regulatory incentives for clean hydrogen? Can you describe those?

[Christine Hogan]

Yes. Thank you for that.

We have a range of them. Some of them I referenced in my opening statement, including the clean fuel regulations that were published in July 2022. Also, Natural Resources leads the work on the complementary clean fuels fund that has been put in place to help incentivize clean fuels and technologies, including hydrogen.

I would also highlight the role that carbon pollution pricing can play in this space, because it does create incentives for cleaner fuels and cleaner technologies.

Those would be two things I would highlight.

Also, members mentioned earlier the work that is under way related to clean electricity and potentially the role that hydrogen will play around cleaning Canada's electricity grids over the coming decade. Those would be a couple of things I would highlight.

Thank you again for that question.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you.

I have a general question now. We're always curious what other countries are doing with hydrogen.

Ms. Hogan, go ahead if you have an answer, or we can turn to Mr. Hannaford.

[Christine Hogan]

I will happily defer this one to John Hannaford. This is a very dynamic space, which I know Mr. Hannaford has referenced a bit already in his remarks today.

[John Hannaford]

Yes. It is a dynamic space.

I mentioned the situation in Europe, where they are looking at a whole series of applications of hydrogen and hydrogen generation. Asia is another area where there is very significant interest and potential. We have been in conversations with our friends in Korea and Japan about the possibilities for hydrogen.

There continues to be interest in that regard, and there is a series of investments being made in those jurisdictions with respect to the consumption of hydrogen and the sorts of applications that could be made in energy generation, transportation and industry.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much.

That's all for me, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank everyone for coming in today. I appreciate the witnesses coming in as well, and in person. It's always great for committee members here on a Friday to see people back.

With that, I will adjourn the meeting.

Thank you again for your time. Have a good weekend.