Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I am afraid that is the time.

If you would like to respond to that very quickly, I'll allow that.

[Christine Hogan]

Derek, do you have anything you want to add? I think it's a pretty specific and important question.

[Derek Hermanutz]

I would just add that there are the two categories, which are the reference case and the additional measures. As we introduce the additional measures into the modelling, often we need to make some fairly high-level assumptions at the beginning, but as those policies evolve and further details are made available, we can update those measures. Eventually, those would be moved into the reference case if they're funded, implemented and legislated.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. McCauley, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Chair, thanks very much.

Mr. Hannaford, is there any reasonable business case for hydrogen if it's not using natural gas?

[John Hannaford]

The costs vary between the feedstocks, but one thing you're seeing through some of the international investments is the technology continuing to evolve, so —

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

We'll have to wait for a kind of Hail Mary for technology, I guess.

This is for Natural Resources.

The environment commissioner mentioned a lack of viability because of the lack of infrastructure. Has Natural Resources provided a projection on what it would cost for investments for the infrastructure required for hydrogen plants as projected by Environment or Natural Resources?

[John Hannaford]

I'm sorry. Was that a question for me?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Yes, it is for Natural Resources.

[John Hannaford]

We have been working on transportation routes as part of the—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm asking if we have done a dollar projection of the costs to build the infrastructure required.

[John Hannaford]

I'm not aware of any specific studies of costing of infrastructure, but I'll look to my colleague.

No, we have not.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Environment, have you performed such an analysis?

[Christine Hogan]

No, to my knowledge, we have not.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Should we not be doing that? Are we not putting the cart before the horse? This could be tens of billions of dollars. We have all these wonderful projections from the government about hydrogen doing this or that, but we don't actually know how we're going to deliver it.

Was that not part of any report or study?

[John Hannaford]

Perhaps I could answer—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'll take that as a no.

Mr. Chair, I'm going to turn the rest of my time over to Mr. McLean.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm sorry, Mr. McCauley. Mr. Hannaford was just about to answer, so why don't we let him do so?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Oh, thanks. Perfect.

Then, I'll turn my time over to Mr. McLean.

[John Hannaford]

I think there are a couple of issues here.

There is currently the potential to move hydrogen, to some degree. You can blend hydrogen with other gases and it can be moved through existing infrastructure at relatively low ratios. That is a possibility right now. Other possibilities are looking at other forms of transportation, as well as the possibility of retrofits to some existing infrastructure. Those, right now, are part of the ongoing conversation as we think about the next steps with respect to hydrogen applications.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks.

I'll turn it over to Mr. McLean.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. McLean, good day. Thank you for joining us today. I understand you're still over at the environment committee, so you're wearing multiple hats today.

You have about two minutes and 11 seconds left in this round, and then we'll be moving on. However, we will come back to you.

Mr. McLean, it's over to you, please.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you. It's much appreciated.

It's nice to see you, Mr. Hannaford.

Let me pick up where my colleague left off. You just talked about the transportation of hydrogen, in light quantities, across Canada. Is that certified, at this point in time, or is that a work in progress? Let's go with that, first of all.

[John Hannaford]

I would describe it as a work in progress.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I would, too. Thank you very much.

What do you think that's going to require—5% hydrogen in the natural gas stream in Canada?