Public Accounts Committee on Jan. 26th, 2023

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I also want to thank all the witnesses for being present with us again today and for being able to answer so many of our questions.

In my final round, I want to mention and reiterate how important this work is to Canadians. Canadians are good people. They show up to work; they pay their taxes and they hope that when they pay their taxes the money goes to helping their neighbours, particularly in a time of need. However, when huge sums of taxpayer dollars are sent to profitable publicly traded companies, they're rightfully concerned. I'm sure—and I hope—you'd agree, Commissioner.

On behalf of Canadians, what percentage of the wage subsidy went to publicly traded companies that made profits during the pandemic?

[Bob Hamilton]

Mr. Chair, I would have to get back to the committee with those statistics, and I'm happy to do so.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

It's noted. Thank you very much.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

In addition to that information, it would be valuable, I think, for Canadians to know how much money went to companies that paid executive bonuses. Do you have that number with you?

[Bob Hamilton]

Mr. Chair, no, I do not have it with me. Again, I can go back, and we can send that to the committee afterwards.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Please do. I believe it's valuable information. Canadians deserve to know where their taxpayer dollars go; they deserve to know which companies have taken this support, and they deserve to know exactly which ones profited. I think those are fair questions. I'll be happy to see that report.

Now, for the Auditor General, what would be the fiscal impact of requiring that money to be repaid?

[Karen Hogan]

I'm not sure that I could predict what the fiscal impact would be. It would depend on the ability to collect payment, wouldn't it?

The first question is identifying how much was paid to ineligible recipients, whether they be individuals or businesses, and then making a decision on efforts to collect, or on collection at all. Those are decisions that the government should make, but the first step is to identify those that are ineligible before you make a decision otherwise.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

My final question for the CRA is in relation to the limited capacity.

There are only so many investigations you can conduct. I understand that and your partial agreement with that recommendation, but given the fact that there are some offenders benefiting disproportionately with larger sums of taxpayer dollars for their publicly traded corporations, wouldn't it be valuable and important to ensure we investigate those first to ensure Canadians get their value retained?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Please give a brief answer, Mr. Hamilton. Thank you.

[Bob Hamilton]

You can rest assured that at the CRA we identify large, medium and small corporations that have gotten money they're not eligible for. That would apply to this program, and that would apply to the income tax and to the GST.

Yes, we believe that it's our duty to Canadians to have a fair compliance regime that tries to distribute the tax breaks fairly and to make sure people are not getting money they're not eligible for.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chambers, you have the floor for five more minutes, and then I'm turning to Ms. Shanahan for the final five minutes.

It's over to you.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I will yield my time to the committee or to one of my colleagues if they have more questions, but I am done, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. McCauley or Mr. Williams, do have you any questions?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Sure. I'll take a couple of seconds and we'll go to Ms. Shanahan.

I want to follow up on one of Ms. Shanahan's comments about using the SIN numbers. In your words, you talked about the amount of resources needed to better track some of the information—

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

No. It was real-time information.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Real-time.... Is that possible? Is that such a significant investment that it's for something further down the road, or is it possible with our current resources? Is it a fantasy wish at this time?

It was, in fact, about real-time.

[Bob Hamilton]

I'm sorry. Between the two, I'm not sure I'm tracing together the actual question. Was it to do with SIN numbers...?

It looks like my colleague got it.

[Cathy Hawara]

I think the question was about the ability for the government to have access to real-time data, in the form of either e-invoicing or e-payroll, and there were two recommendations from the Auditor General in that regard.

There's a significant amount of work under way—certainly on e-payroll—as the commissioner mentioned earlier. Commitments have been made in that regard. We're still a way away, as I understand it. It's the same for e-invoicing. We are currently examining the options for Canada to adopt an e-invoicing solution, but it's quite a significant undertaking. It's an area in which we're learning from what other countries are doing.

As part of our action plan, we will report back on our findings from the studies we're doing now.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay. I apologize. I mixed it up with a previous question I had about the social insurance numbers. I will follow up on that.

Go ahead, Mr. Hamilton.

[Bob Hamilton]

To add to that and to reinforce what Cathy said, now that I understand the question, both on e-payroll.... Real-time payroll data is something we are working on. The government has made a commitment. We're in the process of building a business case.

However, I would say to your point that those are big structural changes within the system, so they're not going to happen in a year or two. They are going to take time, but we have started the work on them. We've made a commitment to go. That's on the e-payroll side.

There are advantages to it. There are advantages beyond the CRA. There are advantages for the records of employment and other data that gets used, but we have to consult with businesses and think about the structural changes.

On the e-invoicing side, again that's something that different countries use to get real-time invoicing data, and we see that as being quite attractive. It also has big issues that need to be resolved systemically, with partners and consultation. We are a little less advanced on that, but we're still pursuing that as well. It will come to what the capacity is at the CRA to do these big structural changes together. That is something we'll have to come to grips with.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I have a couple of quick questions. How many people are working on the postpayment verification? I think you have some 57,000 employees. Is this taking away from other audits?

[Bob Hamilton]

On the postpayment verification for the CEWS, we received resources when the programs were implemented to have auditors and to do the compliance work, so it's not necessarily taking away, but at the end of the day it's probably a bit at the margin.

In terms of the numbers of people, I may have to get back to you with that. Yes, we'll get back to you on exactly how many we have in the compliance base. I don't know if we'd be able to distinguish between the wage subsidy and the other benefits, but if we can, we will.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Sure. You can lump them all in with the other benefits as well. That's fine. Thanks for your time.

AG Hogan and your team, thanks always for your time as well. We appreciate it.

Thanks, Ms. Shanahan, for clarifying my question.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you so much.

For clarification, Mr. Hamilton, on the report you're going to provide for the verification recovery efforts, can those be provided quarterly to the committee?

[Bob Hamilton]

In theory, yes. The only question I'm asking myself as you ask the question is on quarterly reports. Is enough going to happen in a quarter to justify it as a report, or would we be better off using a different time frame?

If you like, I can certainly get back to the committee.