Evidence of meeting #45 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cra.
A video is available from Parliament.
3 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Yes, or if you'd like, we might come back to you. If you give us the cut you're going to, I might come back to you and ask for the quarterly numbers if there are questions around it.
How does that sound?
3 p.m.
Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency
Yes, because you may want quarterly, whether I think it's a good idea or not.
3 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
3 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
That sounds good. Thank you.
Ms. Shanahan, you have the floor for the last five minutes, please.
3 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you, Chair.
I for one am feeling very reassured, having learned that much more about both the pre- and postverification work and the compliance trend that was observed in the December 2 progress report. I'm looking forward to hearing more real results in that regard.
Apparently in that report there was the identification of about 2,000 high-risk files relating to CEWS preparers. Can you tell us more about this work and how you plan to tackle this problem? I think we know what we're talking about: When any program comes out, there are always a few operators who figure out how to work the system, right?
3 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Compliance Programs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
We did find a pocket of more serious non-compliance in the course of our audit work. These are claims that have been made where we believe they were false or contained inaccurate information, and the claimants were actually assisted by a third party in making those claims. We would call them a “preparer”, for example.
We are pursuing all those cases. The December report uses the figure of 2,000. We're up to 3,800. As we are discovering more, we are identifying them, and we will be auditing all those claims. We will also be auditing the preparers who supported the claimants and considering the application of third party penalties.
This is an area we are concerned about, and we will be continuing our work in that regard.
3 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
That's very interesting. You were able to identify a further 1,800, so there are 3,800. It's always handy to have that list close by for future projects.
You mentioned penalties. My understanding is that over $11 million in penalties has been applied against ineligible recipients. Can you tell us a bit more about that and how that's done? Also, is there criminal action that's taken in these cases?
3 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Compliance Programs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
We have the ability under the Income Tax Act to apply penalties in the context of the wage subsidy program. The penalties you mentioned were applied against the claimants themselves, so these are gross negligence penalties that we applied.
There are a number of penalties, but the other ones that we are going to be pursuing are the third party penalties, which I just mentioned. We will be looking at both the claimants and the individuals who supported the claimants in making those false claims.
In terms of criminal investigations, which was the second part of your question, there is the ability on the part of the agency to pursue criminal investigations where we believe criminal activity has taken place in the context of the wage subsidy—if there has been fraud—and our auditors are able to refer cases to our criminal investigations program. There are some investigations under way.
3 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
It's safe to say that the agency commissioner takes this very seriously, Ms. Hawara, and pursues every avenue for anyone who has committed fraud against the agency.
3 p.m.
Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency
Yes, I can say that definitively. Even though earlier on I talked about education, compliance and sensitivity to taxpayers in a situation, when we see something that's wrong, we go after it. We have to have that ability for strong enforcement in cases like those Cathy has raised and even in criminal investigations.
There's a spectrum out there of the kinds of things we do in the compliance world, but definitely, as with all parts of the tax system, we need to have that strong enforcement in cases in which people are doing things inappropriately and, in this case, potentially fraudulently.
3:05 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you. That's very reassuring indeed.
I have one last question. What is the “public-facing CEWS registry”?
3:05 p.m.
Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency
I'll go first, and Cathy may correct me.
As part of the legislation for the wage subsidy, the government committed to putting a registry out publicly that says who got the wage subsidy. We were in charge of putting together that list, and it was on the website. I assume it's still up there—I don't know now—but it tells you who received the wage subsidy. That was just part of the transparency for this program.
3:05 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
That's fully available. It was fully available from the beginning of the program, and is it still there today?
3:05 p.m.
Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency
It probably was available. It took us a bit of time to get it, but, yes, it was essentially from the beginning of the program. What I'm not sure of is if it's still available today.
January 26th, 2023 / 3:05 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Compliance Programs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Because the application period for the CEWS closed in May 2022, we stopped updating the registry. However, it is still available to be consulted. It's a snapshot in time.
The information is still available. It's no longer updated, primarily because the program is no longer available.
3:05 p.m.
Liberal
3:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you.
Is it available publicly online, or do we have to request it?
It is. We can find it online. If we have trouble finding it, I might reach out for a copy.
Thank you. I appreciate everyone's coming in today.
I will adjourn the meeting.