Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 6th, 2023

[Stephen Bent]

Perhaps I'll take the question. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Overall, in terms of our vaccine wastage, by the end of the calendar year we had 12 million doses of vaccine in federal inventory that had expired. Some of those would have included the residual...in terms of the donation.

I would offer, though—it's fundamentally important to note—that these doses were put on offer. There were countries that were not interested in taking them. It's not the fact that they were not accessible to the countries, it was the fact that COVAX could not find suitable homes for them. That was a difference from the early part of the pandemic, when there was a lot of demand and a scarcity of supply.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Is part of the contributing problem the requirement by these companies to have minimum amounts...as we heard from procurement, 20 million?

[Stephen Bent]

No. We've moved—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I heard the no.

Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I'm sorry. I have to keep things tight. I apologize. However, we did get an answer.

Mr. McCauley, you have the floor for three minutes, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

In listening to all of this today, it seems very much the issue—despite what looks like is being spun—that we had far too few vaccines at the beginning and now we have far too many at the end.

I'd like to get an idea, please, I guess from PSPC. What have we signed for obligations going forward for purchasing more vaccine—in terms of dollar value and shots?

Who is providing the demand to you—the numbers that we are expecting to purchase? Is that coming from Health? Where's that coming from?

Also, with regard to the existing contracts we have, for example, Pfizer, are we obligated to buy from the original APA, or is it being revised as we have the booster shots come up?

[Arianne Reza]

As it relates to our current negotiation stance, we work very closely with the Public Health Agency, and behind them, the provinces and territories, to predict demand and the need for supply. We constantly renegotiate our existing agreements: whether or not to trigger options and whether or not to adjust downward based on volume.

These are constantly moving parts. They're not static. That is why it will be helpful for me to come back with the various data points. They're constantly being readjusted. Whether or not options are being triggered is a consideration that's done at the request of the Public Health Agency.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Is the government still claiming national security as the reason not to release vaccine pricing to Canadians?

[Arianne Reza]

Vaccine pricing is one of the commercially sensitive data elements in our contracts. Under our contractual obligations with the suppliers, we do not release that information.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

It's been released in other countries. The Americans and Europeans release their pricing, but for some reason Canada will not. Is it because we're special? Why is that? Is this coming from the manufacturers, or is this coming from the government?

[Arianne Reza]

I cannot comment in detail on what other countries do.

I can advise, of course, that in some of the countries you noted—in some of those markets—they are the countries producing the vaccines. Through their initial investments, they have perhaps a different pricing regime than we see in straight APAs with other countries. This is in terms of guarding that commercially sensitive information, which is done in discussions with the vaccine suppliers.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have 13 seconds for a question and an answer, Mr. McCauley.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I will just say thank you for your report, AG Hogan, and others from the office.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have the floor for three minutes, please.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to follow up on a point that I raised when I was asking questions earlier. This is for the deputy minister, Mr. Lucas.

In fact, in 2022, John Hopkins University put out a study on Canada and the United States, looking at rates of death through the COVID experience on a per capita basis. I'm quoting from a report from the BBC that 279 U.S. residents have died of COVID-19 per 100,000 people compared to about 94 in Canada.

This saves you, if you wish, sir. You don't have to come back to the committee now with that data.

I wish we had longer, but could you make a quick comment on the extent to which Canada's vaccine strategy and how the approach taken here may have contributed to that outcome?

[Dr. Stephen Lucas]

Certainly, I think there was broad engagement across the country with provinces, territories, communities, faith leaders and sports heroes. Everyone in Canada joined in to push the primary series of vaccinations, reaching leading levels in the G7 and the world. I think that contributed significantly to that increase, as well as other public health measures in Canada. That created the differential between Canada and the United States.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Chair, if colleagues have another question, then I....

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have 90 seconds.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Well, okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You can stop at any time.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I also see that it's one o'clock.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I try to finish the rounds, and no one's pressing to end, so you still have 90 seconds.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

That's fine. I'm glad to keep the time, if that's what we're going to do.

I'll go back to this whole issue of international development, since it is International Development Week.

This is again for the deputy minister, Mr. Lucas.

Regarding the 37 bilateral agreements that have been signed between the government and the various countries, how does that come about, exactly? How do we form those deals? Which countries are chosen? How does that process unfold, exactly?

Whoever wishes to can take it.

[Dr. Stephen Lucas]

I'll start and then turn to my public health colleagues.

Through Global Affairs there has been very significant and sustained engagement throughout the pandemic, certainly in the context of donating with COVAX. As well, it's based on our bilateral engagement priorities. This includes, for example, in the Americas and the Caribbean. We reached out to those countries and others.

I'll turn to colleagues on the specifics.

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

Mr. Chair, we actually reached out to multiple countries and offered those surplus vaccines. There were situations where, in addition to Latin America and Caribbean countries, there were African countries that also opted for that. We were diligent enough to send them not only the vaccines but also the supplies needed for the vaccination, to make it possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank all our witnesses. I appreciate your indulgence with the few minutes with Mr. Fragiskatos. I can only imagine the reaction if I was to cut off a government member at the end. Better safe and to run it long to make sure I would have you both. I would have Mr. Fragiskatos and Mr. McCauley coming down on me; instead, we like to hear from everyone, including our witnesses. Thank you again for appearing.

The meeting is adjourned.