Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 9th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I call this meeting to order.

Good day, everyone.

I would note to committee members in particular that we have a hard 5:30 stop for the House resources. I just want you to be aware of that. We cannot go beyond 5:30.

Why don't I open this, Ms. Shanahan, and then I'll come to you right away.

Welcome to meeting number 49 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3), the committee is meeting today as part of its study of the document entitled “Report 4, Systemic Barriers—Correctional Service Canada.”

I'd like to welcome our witnesses.

From the Office of the Auditor General, we have Karen Hogan, Auditor General; Carol McCalla, principal; and Steven Mariani, director. From Correctional Service Canada, we have Anne Kelly, the commissioner; Alain Tousignant, the senior deputy commissioner; and Larry Motiuk, assistant commissioner, policy.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Shanahan, how would you like me to proceed? Do you want me to recognize you or do you want to hear from the witnesses first?

Is this a point of order?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

It's a point regarding the agenda.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Go ahead. You have the floor.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

We all received the amended notice for this meeting asking for 20 minutes of committee time at the end of this meeting.

I have to say there have been some discussions—although not with everyone—about how this is a very important meeting. We want to hear from the witnesses and we want to have the full time—which you have been very good at doing at our previous meetings—to have full rounds. I don't want to speak anymore on that, but I think there are other members who will agree with that.

If we can move the committee business to Monday, we'd like to see the full meeting with the witnesses today.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll give you my response.

The problem is that every one of these meetings is important and, of course, whenever something comes along, there's always the risk of going into committee business. Next week, obviously, we're dealing with Arctic waters and then, after that, cybersecurity.

I think we should proceed with the committee business today. We received a letter from the Auditor General, which I think is noteworthy and it's regarding next steps.

I've allotted 20 minutes at the end, but if the questions are still overlapping, I'm not going to just end at 20 minutes before. If we're still on a roll, we'll go into the business time. The business time is to discuss the Auditor General's letter, which is really a reiteration of a response to us in committee last week, and there is a motion that is coming. With the 5:30 hard stop—and I know a few members here are very good at talking out the clock—my intention is to not allow any time for that debate. It is just a discussion of the letter.

What you're asking for just pushes off the inevitable into next Monday. I'd sooner deal with it today.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

We do have two meetings allotted to Arctic waters, so I think there's more time for that topic than what we have today.

I look to members. I'm asking if members are in agreement. We'd like to keep this....

We want the entirety of today's meeting. I discussed it with Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné and she agrees that today's meeting is very important.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Is there unanimous consent to move up committee business to next week?

It's not my intention to move it on my own, but if there's unanimous consent, I will. Otherwise, let's get on with it.

I'm hearing no opposition, so in that case I will move the 20 minutes of committee business to the end of Monday's meeting, which will be in public as well.

Thank you for your patience, everyone.

Ms. Hogan, you have the floor for five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Karen Hogan, Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General]

Mr. Chair, thank you for this opportunity to discuss our report on systemic barriers, which was tabled in the House of Commons on May 31, 2022. I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people. Joining me today are Carol McCalla and Steven Mariani, who were responsible for the audit.

In this audit, we examined whether Correctional Service Canada, or CSC, was meeting the diverse needs of its offender population. We found that CSC had failed to identify and eliminate systemic barriers that persistently disadvantaged certain groups of offenders. The overrepresentation of indigenous and Black offenders in custody had worsened, with higher security classifications, late delivery of correctional programs and delayed access to release on parole.

We raised similar issues in 2015, 2016 and 2017, and this audit found that CSC had done little to address the differing correctional outcomes, particularly for indigenous and Black offenders. Disparities were present from the moment offenders entered federal institutions. For example, indigenous and Black men were placed at maximum security levels at twice the rate of that for other offenders, and they made up half of all maximum security placements.

We also found that indigenous women were placed at maximum security levels at more than three times the rate for non-indigenous women, and they made up almost 70% of the women in maximum security.

The reliability of CSC's custody rating scale for initial security placements had not been validated since 2012, and its use for Black offenders had never been validated at all. We found that corrections staff frequently overrode the scale's security rating to place indigenous offenders at higher security levels with little consideration of culturally appropriate and restorative options.

Correctional programs are intended to prepare offenders for safe release on parole and to support their successful reintegration into the community. We found that timely access to correctional programs had continued to decline across all groups of offenders since our earlier audits, and it worsened during the COVID-19 pandemic. By December 2021, only 6% of men offenders had completed the programs they needed before they were first eligible to apply for parole.

While the majority of offenders were released on parole before the end of their sentences, indigenous offenders remained in custody longer and at higher levels of security until their release.

Since the onset of the pandemic, indigenous and Black offenders were more likely to be released at their statutory release date. Indigenous and Black offenders were also more likely to be released directly into the community from maximum-security institutions.

Indigenous women made up two thirds of those released from maximum security at women’s institutions, and were unable to benefit from a gradual transition to the community that supports their successful reintegration.

With respect to its workforce, CSC’s efforts to support greater equity, diversity, and inclusion fell short. CSC committed to building a workforce that reflects the diversity of its offender population, but it had not yet established a plan to bridge these representation gaps.

We found workforce representation gaps across institutions with regard to indigenous and Black offenders as well as gender representation gaps among staff at women’s institutions.

This is our fourth audit since 2015. It shows poor and worsening outcomes for different groups of offenders. CSC has taken little concrete action to change the seemingly neutral policies, procedures, and practices that produce these outcomes.

CSC acknowledged in November 2020 that systemic racism is present in the correctional system. It is long overdue that CSC remove the systemic barriers identified in this report.

This concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hogan.

Commissioner Kelly, you have the floor for five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Anne Kelly, Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and committee members.

I would also like to acknowledge that we are on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people.

Joining me today are Alain Tousignant and Larry Motiuk. It is a pleasure for me to appear today with my colleagues to discuss actions we have taken in response to the Auditor General’s report on systemic barriers. I thank the Auditor General and her office for their recommendations, all of which I have accepted.

I will focus my remarks today on the highlights of our progress to date. Through this report, and other incidents in the news, we are reminded of the existence of systemic barriers and racism within the criminal justice system, and how we collectively need to do more.

Since becoming commissioner, I have made it CSC's priority to create a safe, respectful, diverse, and inclusive organization. CSC continues to make this a priority while, at the same time, doubling down on our efforts to overcome the operational disruptions caused by the pandemic.

This includes working to address the overrepresentation of indigenous and Black offenders within the federal correctional system. We know that the rate of admissions of indigenous people into federal custody continues to grow as it has for the past 10 years. For example, last year indigenous offenders represented 35% of our admissions.

While CSC cannot influence the decisions that bring offenders into our custody, it is our responsibility to improve outcomes for offenders by providing them opportunities for effective rehabilitation. We have implemented a number of initiatives to accomplish this, and we are are in the process of hiring a deputy commissioner for indigenous corrections.

We have also been working to develop a national Black offender strategy to identify new opportunities to address Black offenders' unique lived experiences and the barriers they may face.

I'm encouraged that our efforts are yielding positive results. For example, in 2021-22, high percentages of indigenous and Black offenders were not readmitted to federal custody within the five years following the end of their sentences.

In her report, the Auditor General raised concerns about CSC's custody rating scale or CRS. The CRS is one component of a systematic and comprehensive process with respect to how we assign an initial security level to federally sentenced offenders, but it does not define the final placement decision. In addition to conducting ongoing research to ensure that our actuarial tools are reliable and valid, CSC signed an MOU with the University of Regina, which is working at arm's length to develop an indigenous- and gender-informed security classification process.

In collaboration with four external experts, CSC is also undertaking an extensive exercise to validate the custody rating scale for Black men offenders and to revalidate it for women and indigenous offenders.

One of the ways that we can better meet the needs of offenders is through correctional programming. Results indicate that CSC's correctional programs are equally effective across a broad range of ethnic groups. Offenders who participate in programs are less likely to recidivate than are non-participants, regardless of ethnic background.

However, as the Auditor General has indicated, timely access is key. Offenders who are serving short sentences and who have an identified program need are being prioritized and, in fact, we have already seen an increase in the percentage of those who complete their program prior to their first release. We also have a virtual correctional program delivery initiative, which will modernize program scheduling, referrals and assignments, and ultimately improve offenders' timely access and completion of correctional programs.

In addition to the measures I just mentioned, we are working to better reflect the diversity of the offender population among the staff who work with them.

The Correctional Service of Canada has set ambitious targets for Indigenous and visible minority representation within its workforce, which take into account the offender population at each of our facilities.

The Service is also formalizing its goals for gender representation in women's facilities. Currently, in the five women's institutions and women's healing lodges, all management positions are held by women, some of whom are Indigenous and visible minorities. In addition, 75% of the front-line workers in our women's institutions are female.

Since the release of the Auditor General's report, we have conducted an employment systems review, which has informed the development of our comprehensive Employment Equity, Diversity and Inclusion Plan.

In conclusion, it has been a challenging few years. I want to thank all our employees for their ongoing hard work, dedication and commitment as we continue to balance many priorities and make important progress on numerous fronts.

As commissioner, I remain steadfast in my commitment to support positive outcomes for indigenous, Black and other racialized Canadians in the correctional system. This includes taking meaningful action to address the recommendations made by the Auditor General, the correctional investigator and other external advisory bodies to sustain lasting positive change.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you all very much.

We'll turn now to our first round. The first four members will each have six minutes.

Mr. Brock, thank you for joining us today. You have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for their attendance today and for all the hard work they've put into this report.

I want to preface my questions by informing the witnesses, and informing other members of this committee, that I come to this particular committee today with 30 years' legal experience as a Crown prosecutor prior to my election in 2021. I was in the trenches dealing with systemic racism in the criminal justice system.

My first question is for you, Ms. Kelly. You made a broad statement with respect to the criminal justice system generally, although this particular study is about the Auditor General's report regarding Correctional Services. Do you acknowledge that, in addition to that broad statement, courts across this country, prosecutors across this country, are actively taking steps to reduce the overincarceration rate of indigenous inmates—men, women and youth—as well as Black inmates—men, women and youth—through the use of specialized courts, such as the indigenous peoples court, gang-related courts in some of the larger centres and things of that nature? Do you acknowledge that?

[Anne Kelly]

I believe there are some steps being taken, but I can only speak to what we see, obviously, in terms of the offenders who are admitted within our custody. What I can say is that regarding indigenous offenders, unfortunately, the admissions are growing. As I said, last year 35% of our admissions were actually indigenous offenders. That's what I would say.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay. I think that begs the question of why we have a year-to-year increase in the number of admissions for indigenous offenders and Black offenders. When I take a look at the Auditor General's 29-page report—I may be naive in this, because I didn't have all the documentation to prepare for my attendance today—I don't see any data to support what the predicate offence was by which these individuals found themselves in the federal institution. I see no reference to age demographics with respect to these inmates.

Are these some of the data points that you actually collected?

[Anne Kelly]

Certainly, in CSC we have that. Yes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay.

[Anne Kelly]

For indigenous offenders, for example, they tend to be younger than other offenders. Their sentence lengths, unfortunately, have become longer over the time period. More are serving indeterminate sentences. Unfortunately, there's been a profound change in offence-type composition, with more serving sentences for murder or a schedule 1 offence. Combined, basically it's climbed to 84%. As well, they have very high needs. The high-needs rating has gone from 86% up to 90% up.

We absolutely collect that data.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

We have indigenous and Black youth committing murders. You also mentioned level one or class one offences.

[Anne Kelly]

It was schedule 1.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Does that include significant, dangerous firearm convictions?

[Anne Kelly]

It's more violent, yes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

It's very violent. Okay. Needless to say, it's a longer sentence. Is that correct?

[Anne Kelly]

Yes. That's what we're seeing.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

When you have violent offences, such as homicides, random shootings and things of that nature, you'd agree with me that the overriding sentencing determination by a court is not one of rehabilitation but rather separation from society. Do you agree with that?