Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 9th, 2023

[Anne Kelly]

Again, for us in CSC, they come to us. Our job in CSC is to provide them with opportunities, with programs and interventions, to actually try to rehabilitate them so that they can become law-abiding citizens. That's our mandate. That's what we work with.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay.

There's another point I want to draw. A lot of these offenders, unfortunately, come from very significantly socially disadvantaged groups—quite often socially and economically, with poverty, lack of education, lack of a parental fostering network and things of that nature. Quite often, and we ought not to be surprised by this, they are funnelled into a gang lifestyle.

Did your data show that as well?

[Anne Kelly]

Yes. The data shows that in terms of gang affiliation, it's higher.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

That's right. In fact, I'm looking at StatsCan from 2021. Of the 297 gun homicides in Canada in 2021, almost 50% of them were gang-related. When you dig even deeper into the composition of the gangs, close to 50% of all gang members in Canada are made up of African Canadians and first nations.

Does your data support that as well?

[Anne Kelly]

Yes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Right, so it ought not—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Brock, I hate to interrupt you, because I know you're in a line of questioning here, but your time has expired. I believe we will get back to you later on.

Ms. Shanahan, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for appearing here today and for the important work they do.

I was a member of this public accounts committee in 2016 and 2017. We probably looked at the 2015 report as well. I remember being very disturbed by the overrepresentation of indigenous and racialized individuals in the prison system. Certainly, at that time there were many expressions about the goal of rehabilitation being the primary goal of our prison system. We were failing at that.

What is different this time, Commissioner Kelly?

[Anne Kelly]

In terms of indigenous offenders, right now 32% of the population is indigenous. For women it's 47%. For Black offenders it has actually gone down. It used to be 9.2%. It's gone down to 8.7%.

Since 2017 we've put in place a number of initiatives. For example, for indigenous offenders we've created indigenous interventions centres in some of our institutions. What happens there is that they get programs earlier. In terms of section 84 releases, where you have to engage the indigenous community, that starts right at the beginning when they are admitted to federal custody. Basically, they work with an indigenous community liaison officer if they want to go back to the indigenous community.

The other thing is that we have Pathways in our institutions. Basically, Pathways can be arranged in the institution so that offenders can continue to practice their culture and traditions. We have indigenous correctional programming that's culturally appropriate for the offenders. As well, after they complete a program for indigenous offenders, there's an automatic review of their security classification. We also have healing circles. When they go before the parole board, instead of a normal hearing they have a healing circle.

We've done a lot—

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt.

Did this not exist back in 2015, 2016 or 2017?

[Anne Kelly]

I'm not sure. Actually, that's the Parole Board. I'm just going through the beginning of sentence up until release.

The other thing is that we've trained 1,500 employees. We've done the blanket exercise. All the executive committee has done it as well. In terms of representation, 10% of our staff is actually indigenous. We have around 140 elders. We have a national elders working group as well as a national indigenous advisory committee. Actually, we're meeting with them in a month. We talk about barriers. We talk about what's going on in the institution. They provide advice to me.

The other big thing is that we are in the process of hiring a deputy commissioner for indigenous corrections. Hopefully, that will help advance our mandate.

Certainly, we are working really hard. We have different initiatives that are specific to not just indigenous but all offenders. For example, we have digital education pilot projects where it's the curriculum from the province. We have received very good, positive feedback from the offenders. We have virtual correctional program delivery, where we will be able to have offenders who require a program get together from different institutions. That will be the class. It will be done virtually, but with a teacher in the classroom.

That will help us basically meet the demand for programs, because programs are key in CSC.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

On that note, Commissioner, my colleague mentioned the social and economic upbringing of many of these offenders, young people who then find themselves in prison for extended terms. Are there any studies that tell us that these programs, while they can't replace a healthy upbringing, can make a change in those lives?

[Anne Kelly]

Yes. Certainly, Larry can speak more to this.

The indigenous correctional programs have been developed with indigenous people. Clearly, with indigenous people we see that there is a lot of trauma as well, so that's included in the program. Too, there are elders who participate in the program to help them so that they can speak about what they've experienced.

In June 2019, Bill C-83, actually considering the indigenous social history, was enshrined in legislation. We've done a ton of training on indigenous social history. What I will admit, though, is that, with regard to how it translates in the recommendations and the decisions, we still have a little bit of work to do. We actually are very good at gathering the information and the indigenous social history, but then, looking at all these factors when we make recommendations and decisions, there is room for improvement.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That is all the time. Thank you very much.

Mr. Villemure, you have six minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for joining us today to discuss a very important subject.

Ms. Kelly, I understand that the very first report issued by the Office of the Correctional Investigator in 1974 raised the discriminatory treatment of Indigenous people in federal custody. In the decades since, the Office has made over 70 recommendations specific to correctional services for Indigenous inmates in its annual reports.

Fifty years later, do you have anything positive to report?

[Anne Kelly]

Over the past 50 years, we have done significant work.

I have been with the Correctional Service of Canada for nearly 40 years. I deeply believe in the mandate to help and encourage offenders to become law-abiding citizens. I truly do. They are going to be our neighbours, your neighbours, and clearly we want them to be better citizens upon their release than when they enter our institutions. That is important to me, to Mr. Tousignant and to Mr. Motiuk.

We have clearly made progress over the past 50 years. Let me share a story that illustrates that point. Every week I send messages to staff and inmates, and several offenders write to me. One day an Indigenous inmate wrote to me. He told me that since his arrival in the institution, he had been difficult. But along the way, he met people, educators, correctional officers and program officers, and he decided to change his life. This offender is about to obtain his Bachelor's degree in psychology. He asked me if he could come back to the institution to help other Indigenous offenders once he had returned to the community and proven himself. There are many such stories.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

That is certainly a lovely story and I thank you for it. Like you, I am a great believer in rehabilitation.

Earlier, you listed a host of your activities and programs, including those related to equity, diversity and inclusion. I suppose people learn a great deal through the training you provide. But do you assess their comprehension, or do you simply provide the training?

[Anne Kelly]

Are you referring to offenders, or inmates?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I am referring to Correctional Service of Canada staff.

[Anne Kelly]

We do provide training, of course. However, we are in the midst of a culture change at Correctional Service Canada and we have conducted a culture audit.

We are certainly seeing more diversity. We are also reviewing inmate grievances against staff, as well as a range of aspects that indicate whether there have been improvements. Of course, the training and correctional programs are making gains.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much. I hope your culture audit was not conducted by McKinsey, if you will pardon the joke.

Mr. Motiuk, your research credentials are impressive. I would like to ask you the same question. Do you assess your employees' comprehension when it comes to diversity, inclusion and other topics?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk, Assistant Commissioner, Policy, Correctional Service of Canada]

There are a couple of ways to answer that. First and foremost, we do staff surveys. We've done them in the past. We also work closely with our frontline service providers to ensure that they have good comprehension, good understanding, of the core program components they're delivering. We certify them too, in terms of the assessment tools they administer.

Yes, we do assess them and we certify them in terms of their understanding of the application of these measures as well as the programs they deliver. Then we measure the results in terms of reductions in reoffending. Our evaluations clearly indicate that we have significant reductions in reoffending for indigenous people, and for all offenders, if they complete the programs.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I am keenly interested in assessing comprehension, because one can attend a training session and not understand or learn anything. But understanding is key.

Ms. Kelly, do you believe your weak efforts at equity, diversity and inclusion among your correctional officers are related to discrimination issues among prisoners?

[Anne Kelly]

Could you repeat the question?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Are your weak efforts on equity, diversity and inclusion among correctional staff related to discrimination among inmates?