Evidence of meeting #49 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offenders.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
In terms of training, I have numbers on diversity that are better than the ones you just mentioned.
Over the past five years, results have improved. It takes time. As I mentioned, we don't decide who is admitted to our institutions. Once they are admitted, we try to provide them with programmes and interventions.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
In your culture change, you are attempting to go from very bad to bad. Is that right?
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Your culture is changing. You mentioned a culture audit earlier. So I suppose you are hoping to go from very bad to bad.
4:25 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
No, I wouldn't say it is very bad or bad. After all, our organization has about 18,000 employees. We have dedicated and committed employees who understand CSC's mission.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Out of 18,000 employees, 498 participated in the Indigenous cultural bias training. That's hardly a high percentage.
4:25 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
No. I don't have the most recent data.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you both.
Mr. Desjarlais, you have two and half minutes.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank my colleagues on both sides for what I think is very important questioning and your patience with what is a very difficult study for me.
I've been on the opposite end of this for a long time, and I have only seen it get worse. You can call it what you want. You can say that improvements are being made. The reality is, Commissioner, you made an important statement: The number is increasing.
I don't necessarily believe that the Correctional Service is to blame. I believe, like many indigenous folks, that this is a holistic problem that will require a holistic solution. You made mention of that in your remarks, and I appreciate that. I also recognize that your department has accepted this in the past. Absent my being here, your predecessor sat here and agreed three times to the Auditor General's recommendations to make things better.
The TRC has been out for a long time—since your entire appointment, and I'm sure the gentlemen with you as well. I'm not sure if you've even read it, and that's the question I'd like to know. What is your literacy in terms of the TRC? Do you know what the Truth and Reconciliation call to action number 35 is?
Larry, I'll perhaps ask you that.
4:25 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Policy, Correctional Service of Canada
Not specifically number 35, but I'm well aware of some of the recommendations, and—
4:25 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Yes. For us, it's around correctional programs. It's around healing and a holistic approach. It's around section 81—healing lodges—because it's seen as a barrier.... It's the—
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Commissioner, why don't your colleagues know what that is when it's the one core mandate of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission for your department? How is it that this isn't the central piece to your work when 70% of indigenous people are incarcerated and under your charge? How is it that, at this level, you come to a committee with a study on indigenous incarceration, the overrepresentation of indigenous people, and your senior bureaucrats don't know what I'm talking about?
Can you admit that's a failure in how we need to actually see...? Indigenous people need to have trust and need to be able to see that the officials in charge of these systems care. When I hear things like that, you have to share in my disappointment.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Mr. Desjarlais, can you give the witness a few moments to answer, please? I have to move on.
Commissioner Kelly, it's over to you for a quick answer.
4:30 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
I can assure you.... We often say that we talk about this, but the greatest responsibility is having the care of other human beings. They committed crimes, and it includes indigenous offenders, Black offenders—all offenders. We want to work with them, basically to ensure that they are better when they are released.
The one thing I do want to say—
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
I'm going to cut you off there. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
I am sorry, but I need to be judicious with the clock as much as possible. I'm sure there will be another opportunity.
Mr. Genuis, you have the floor for five minutes.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you, Chair.
There's policy. There are the objectives. There's the question of values, and then there's the question of implementation. I think we've had a lot of thoughtful and moving comments made about policy, ideas and values. Usually in this committee, we deal with implementation. I want to really drill into that in my questions.
For eight years, the government has been talking about, as a policy objective, addressing the problem of the overrepresentation of certain communities in our justice system. It seems from the data that they're not addressing it. They may be talking about it. They may be sincere in their motivations. However, as far as implementation goes, in fact the needle is moving in the wrong direction as it pertains to indigenous peoples. We have to acknowledge that's a failure of implementation.
I want to start by asking the Auditor General this. Is it fair to say—correct to say—that regardless of good intentions, and perhaps powerful words at times from the government, they are not making progress when it comes to the issue of responding to the overrepresentation of certain communities in the criminal justice system?
4:30 p.m.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Unfortunately, this audit didn't look at the entire criminal justice system. We started from where the responsibilities of Correctional Service Canada start, which is once they have been found guilty and sentenced to two years or more and remanded to a federal institution. At that point, you can see from the statistics in our report, representation from indigenous peoples is growing.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Yes, so things are actually getting worse. Whatever the strategy is that is being tried by the government, whatever intentions are forming it, the results are getting worse.
Thank you for clarifying that. You're looking at what happens to people once they're already in prison, not at the factors that may contribute to getting them there. In terms of the data you looked at, in terms of the way people are treated once they're in prison, the overrepresentation problems in terms of the various ways people are treated are still getting worse over time.
4:30 p.m.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
I would point you to exhibit 4.1, which looks at a linear representation over 10 years of the changing demographics in federal institutions.
What we then looked at was whether the outcomes or the goals of the Correctional Service to rehabilitate individuals and reinsert them into the community were being effective. That's where we still saw differing outcomes based along race and ethnicity.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you.
For the folks at Correctional Service of Canada, when you hear that and you look at these numbers, is your approach to say, “Well, we need to just do more of the same”, or is your approach to say, “My goodness, something fundamental about what we're doing isn't working and we need to reorient our strategy dramatically”?
4:30 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
I would say it's a little bit of both: that we need to—
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I don't know how that's possible, but I'll let you finish. I'm sorry.
4:30 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
No, it's just that.... For example, when we introduced indigenous intervention centres, it was with a purpose of ensuring that when they are admitted they immediately can start a program, that they can start working with the elders. If they want to return to their indigenous community, they work with an indigenous liaison officer so that they can liaise with the indigenous community. We've done a number of things.
We also, like I said, look at—