Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 9th, 2023

[Anne Kelly]

In regard to transfers, sometimes transfers occur because there's a particular reason: Maybe the woman at Grand Valley would no longer be safe and that's why she's transferred.

When they are closer to release, normally we look at their release plan. If a woman's release plan is in the Pacific region in B.C. and that's where she has her community supports, normally we would transfer the woman closer so that she can be released in an environment where she's going to have supports.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Bradford, I'm afraid that is the time. We're a little over.

Mr. Villemure, you were next on the list, but I am told you wish to skip your turn.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank my Bloc Québécois colleague and all my colleagues for what I think is a very important line of questioning, because I think this is....

What I'm hearing is that we care about this issue, all of us. I really hope—I really, really hope—we don't have to return to this audit again in the way it is. That is more than a challenge; that's a demand. It's a demand for just basic morality and basic levels of understanding on this issue.

I still don't have confidence that CSC has the cultural competency from the top to do this work correctly. That is why so many indigenous people feel neglected and not heard. I want to know what actions you've taken to educate your own selves about the history of this country. You spoke at great length and mentioned six or seven times now this indigenous social history. I made remarks at the very beginning to clarify that this is not an indigenous or a Black problem. This is a Canadian problem in terms of how we think of fellow human beings.

The TRC is clear about many of these outcomes, and I just wish.... Take five minutes and read it. Take five minutes. Memorize it. People died for those things. Take just five minutes. There are seven calls to action for your department. There are not that many. There are seven calls to action. I need confidence today that, when I leave this room, you're going to do something about your own learning and you're going to make efforts to rebuild that trust. I might not be here forever. You might be able to wait me out, but I hope you can remember this for as long as you possibly can in your service to Canadians: that these are real people too and they deserve a chance.

Do you know the history of this country well enough to understand why these people are in the position they are in? If not, that's okay. We can help—the government benches here, and the opposition will support. What resources do you need to change this?

Do you know the history of colonization in this country?

[Anne Kelly]

Yes. I would say we do. I would also say we care. We care about ensuring that we offer the offenders who come into our custody what they require so that they don't return to custody. If they return to custody, for us that's a failure. We want them to stay in the community.

That's why we have a national elders working group. That's why we have a national indigenous advisory committee that provides advice to me. That's why I invite all of you to come into our institutions to see what—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I have, and that's the problem, Commissioner. They're worse. They're not working. I am telling you that indigenous people are being left behind, and something needs to change. It needs to change at the top.

If you don't believe that you have the resources to do this job, we need to know. I need to know that you have confidence and that you understand the issue well. I will tell you again that this isn't a matter of blaming people. It's a matter of understanding. There is a failure here. We're talking about the failure of your department. We're not talking about the success of your department. We're talking about the abject, overt, objective failure.

It's not that I am saying this. The Auditor General, the top independent office in this country, has told you that you have failed many times over. There needs to be confidence. I need that—indigenous people need that—to know that these systems aren't a sham, where you can contract a university to do the work that should be done by indigenous community members. I won't talk about that today, but it's something that I hope you will take seriously. Community members are the ones who know best.

The TRC, if you'd read it, actually says that. Call to action 38 makes explicit note. It doesn't say consult with the universities. It doesn't say consult with the government. It doesn't say consult with other persons. It says you need to find ways to consult directly with community members.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Desjarlais.

We'll turn now to Mr. Kram, who has been very patient.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

We're going to go with Garnett.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You're being even more patient.

Mr. Genuis, we'll go over to you for five minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to ask about something that's not in the report, which is on spiritual care or chaplaincy services in prisons. We've heard from various groups about access by minority faiths to that system. I'm of the view that certainly chaplaincy services are important. Ensuring that people from different faith backgrounds, cultural backgrounds, are able to access chaplaincy services that provide them with spiritual support is important.

I don't often quote Nietzsche favourably, but I think he was right to say that he who has a “why” to live for can bear almost any “how”. A sense of the purpose of life, a sense of someone's ultimate meaning, I think plays a very important role in rehabilitation.

Maybe we'll start with the Auditor General.

Were you able to identify any inequalities in access to spiritual care or issues around representation within the provision of those services? If it wasn't part of your work, then we'll go to Corrections after that.

[Karen Hogan]

We didn't focus in on that writ large across the entire offender population, but we did look at whether or not culturally appropriate and restorative options were considered for indigenous offenders. These are options such as healing lodges or work with elders, and really that whole concept of considering indigenous social history, which has been codified into legislation and should be done.

We looked at a group of files, about 20 files, where we saw the custody rating scale being overridden and the indigenous offender being placed in a higher security institution. What was concerning was that we saw no evidence of their indigenous social history being considered in those 20 files. There was no documentation of it. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but we saw no proof of it happening. That's why we recommended that more needs to be done around overrides, but also codifying and solidifying the considering of indigenous social history in the way it's supposed to be considered. That's not to be more punitive but to help for better restoration.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes. I think that discussion of social history is distinct from the discussion of spiritual care, but thank you for sharing some of that work that was done.

Maybe the folks at Corrections could share a bit about the relationship between chaplaincy and ensuring that access to those services is available to everybody.

[Anne Kelly]

We certainly value our chaplains. They do a lot. It's Bridges of Canada that is the entity. The inmates, depending on their spirituality, get the spiritual adviser they require. We do have that, and they play a significant role.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

From your perspective, is that access available if someone is Baha'i and they say they're looking for this kind of spiritual support. If somebody is a Christian from a particular denomination and they're more comfortable receiving support in the context of that tradition, would you say it's working well for people from any background to be able to access support that aligns with those preferences, or are there struggles to meet people's needs in terms of that access?

[Anne Kelly]

I think it's better now with Bridges. It's really to meet the needs of the offenders, and certainly I haven't heard any complaints from offenders.

Alain, I don't know whether you want to add anything.

[Alain Tousignant, Senior Deputy Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada]

No, not at this point.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

From your perspective, is everything working very well in terms of people having that access?

We have heard from external stakeholders who have a different perspective. They will follow today's testimony and maybe have follow-up comments. I just think it's important for us to hear what you're saying one way or the other.

From your perspective, it's working very well in terms of people of diverse faiths and ethnocultural backgrounds accessing the services that align with what they're looking for.

[Anne Kelly]

Yes, it's working.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

All right. I think that's probably my time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have just a few seconds left, so do you yield?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I suppose so, yes.

Go ahead, Kelly.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have about 15 seconds.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Is it 15 seconds? Never mind. I thought you said 50.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I will in fact yield, Mr. Chair. I will pass my time to Mr. Desjarlais.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have five minutes, sir.