Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 9th, 2023

[Anne Kelly]

They're going to look at more gender-responsive and culturally specific factors as well.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I appreciate that. I'm sorry that I have to cut you off from time to time. I don't mean any disrespect.

Is there any timeline on that?

[Anne Kelly]

Yes. It's a five-year MOU, and we're into the third year.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Will it be another two years before the final product or updated CRS will be ready for use?

[Anne Kelly]

Larry, you have more of the timelines.

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

Yes. The timelines on the validation exercise on Black men.... There aren't enough Black women in custody to actually do a validation study. We only have 19 in the whole country. We have a substantial number of Black men. We've downloaded data. We're working with external experts. The timeline on that is December of this year, and we're well under way with that exercise.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

That's two years for indigenous offenders—

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

That's right.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

—and by the end of this year for—

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

We're only looking at one tool, the custody rating scale specifically for Black men, a validation study. We're looking at the entire process for indigenous women.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

That leads to my second question. I noticed that the report says that 30% of these assessments based on the CRS were overridden, and half of that resulted in a higher level of security. What does that say to us? Is it that the CRS is not effective enough?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

That's not necessarily the case. It means there could be other reasons for overriding the scale.

For example, it's an initial placement. One needs to realize that, upon admission, they might not have a lot of criminal history, but there could be factors that might raise the security level. A good example would be gang affiliation. It isn't really sensitive to that aspect, but if other information came to the awareness of a parole officer, they might recommend a higher level of custody than what the custody rating scale would say.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

That explains the 50% who probably received a higher security level, but shouldn't all that already be considered within the CRS?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

It can be, but again it's one tool and not all tools are perfect. We have a concordance rate of around 75%, which is pretty accurate. It's a good benchmark, and you need to anchor your assessments, which are highly professionally based, on something that's objective and individualized.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

So—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Keep it very brief, Mr. Dong

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Okay.

By the time they're updated, will we see the 30% overriding rate drop?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

Yes, actually we have observed that in the last year. It has come down quite a bit. It's closer to 25%.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

What's the percentage? It's 25%. Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Villemure, you have two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Chair. Our answers will have to be brief.

Ms. Hogan, you have written about the Correctional Service of Canada on numerous occasions. Employees have therefore had the opportunity to see your reports and read them. Did they understand them?

[Karen Hogan]

I believe there are Correctional Service of Canada officials present who are in a better position to answer the question.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Then I will ask them.

[Karen Hogan]

I must confess to being quite frustrated. Since 2015, worrying outcomes related to offenders' race and ethnicity were reported on at least four occasions. It is this systematic process that continues to generate negative outcomes for some offenders. This matter must be resolved.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Kelly, I have the same question for you.

As you indicated earlier, there is good representation in some cases. However, representation does not necessarily mean understanding.

Last fall, Radio-Canada reported that 498 employees participated in your most popular training session, out of a total workforce of 18,000. That is a 2.8% participation rate. It was the Indigenous cultural bias training.

I don't know whether those employees understood, but not many of them participated in that training. Is there anything new you can share with us about this?