Evidence of meeting #53 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was infrastructure.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Valerie Gideon  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Rory O'Connor  Director General, Regional Infrastructure Delivery Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services
Joanne Wilkinson  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services
Gina Wilson  Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Kenza El Bied  Director General, Sector Operations Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 53 of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is meeting today to resume its study on “Report 8: Emergency Management in First Nations Communities—Indigenous Services Canada”, and of the 2022 reports of the Auditor General of Canada.

I would like to welcome our witnesses. For the first hour, there will be a change up, or a departure in about one hour.

First, let me welcome the Honourable Patty Hajdu, Minister of Indigenous Services. Thank you for being here today.

Also from the Department of Indigenous Services, we have Gina Wilson, deputy minister, Joanne Wilkinson, senior assistant deputy minister of the regional operations sector, Valerie Gideon, associate deputy minister, Kenza El Bied, director general of the sector operations branch in the regional operations sector, and Rory O'Connor, director general of the regional infrastructure delivery branch in the regional operations sector.

Minister Hajdu, you have the floor for five minutes for your opening statement, and then we'll turn to our members.

Thank you.

11 a.m.

Thunder Bay—Superior North Ontario

Liberal

Patty Hajdu LiberalMinister of Indigenous Services

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

To all members, thanks for the invitation. It's a pleasure to join you here today on the traditional and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe People.

I think this is a very important conversation, which you have, I'm sure, been studying over the last number of weeks. Joining me today, as you pointed out, are Deputy Minister Gina Wilson, Associate Deputy Minister Valerie Gideon and the senior team.

Indeed, in December, I appeared at the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs on the same matter, and I will reiterate what I said there: We fully agree with the Auditor General's report. I've had the opportunity to speak with her about the recommendations and our findings.

I've been the Minister of Indigenous Services for about a year and a half now. During that time, I've worked with and visited communities that have been deeply affected by climate-related disasters, whether it's atmospheric flooding in B.C., flooding in Manitoba, high wind and rain destruction from hurricane Fiona in the Atlantic, or countless communities threatened by forest fires in close proximity. It's clear that first nations people are on the front lines of climate change, which compounds the layers of challenging circumstances many communities already navigate.

Recently, the department has been supporting communities close to the environmental disaster of the Kearl Lake spill. These kinds of emergencies place enormous stress on communities through fear, disruption and, often, dislocation and expense, not to mention the deep sense of loss many people share. Whether the impact is on salmon, water, animals or land, or there's personal loss of property, health or even life, there is a deep grief every single time.

The frequency of these emergencies has increased exponentially over time. In 2010, there were 92 reported emergencies to manage collectively. In 2022, there were 173. There's no doubt we need to change how we support communities in pursuing adaptation and resiliency measures much more quickly, while we continue to be there, in an increasing way, as emergencies continue.

We know first nations people need to be in the lead, with a department that works as a true partner in both mitigation and emergency response. Indeed, first nations are taking on services and programs. The department is implementing new ways and flexible funding agreements. We're increasingly seeing collaboration with provinces, so we can more collectively respond and create better outcomes for everyone.

As an example, Ontario first nations have put forward a joint command governance model that includes indigenous partners such as tribal councils, Missanabie Cree, the Province of Ontario and Indigenous Services Canada. This approach provides better integration, so that when an emergency occurs, affected first nations have an immediate say in the emergency management process, including about decisions along the way and evacuation.

When first nations are equipped with the tools they need to deliver their own services, the results are palpable. For example, with support from Indigenous Services Canada, the First Nations' Emergency Services Society of British Columbia is supporting first nations to deliver emergency management services that integrate cultural and traditional practices. They also deliver Indigenous Services Canada's FireSmart program, which provides B.C. first nations with resources to increase resilience and better prepare for wildfires.

These are just some of the concrete examples of our transition to an approach that is inclusive, places first nations as full and equal partners, and supports their right to self-determination.

We know we don't have the luxury of time. Climate change is real. It's increasing the number of emergencies the department, provinces and territories, and communities must respond to. We need to continue aggressive funding and action, and to dismantle the colonial ways that haven't served first nations very well.

I understand many of you received a copy of the Indigenous Services Canada management action plan. I'll briefly talk about a few points.

We're updating emergency management plans to reflect today's realities and support first nations to make informed decisions.

We're actively finding solutions to address unfunded structural mitigation reports. Since our last appearance, we've reduced these reports from 122 to 58.

We're continuing to initiate multilateral conversations with indigenous leadership, first nations and provincial and territorial governments. As I said, the multilateral approach provides for better preplanning and coordination if and when emergencies occur.

Finally, we're working to ensure that emergency management services on reserve are supported to be culturally competent and in line with community needs and priorities.

As well, other government initiatives are outlined in the shared path for a more climate-resilient Canada through the national adaptation strategy. This strategy includes $1.6 billion in new federal funding commitments to help protect communities across the country, including indigenous communities.

Since 2015, when this government was elected, we have made unprecedented and historic investments in first nations communities, but the gap is very large. There's still much to be done, including continuing to act on this particular Auditor General's report, signing agreements with first nations and provinces and territories, and building structural mitigation efforts.

As I said earlier, I appreciate your work and advocacy for self-determination and equity for all first nations in Canada, including in this space of emergency preparedness and management.

I see my role as minister as being to press for service excellence and transformation, but also to seek the additional investments that we'll need to support better emergency management services and preparedness for first nations. I will continue that work.

Meegwetch. Thank you. Marsi.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much, Minister.

I'll just remind members that we have Minister Hajdu here until noon, so I will be strict with your time. I will allow witnesses to answer briefly if the time is over, but I mean briefly. I want to make sure we get through two complete rounds while respecting the minister's time.

Without further ado, I'm turning to Mr. McCauley.

You have the floor for six minutes, please.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thanks for joining us today. I think it's very important that you be here, so it is appreciated.

I have to say this is probably—and I don't think you could find disagreement—one of the very worst AG reports that I have encountered in my seven and a half years here in the House. The performance and lack of answers from your deputies at the first meeting, to be very frank, was disappointing. We have seen that high-risk first nations communities were not IDed or prioritized. Structural mitigation needs were not met. First nations homes were damaged while communities waited for funding to address flood risks. There were non-existent or out-of-date emergency plans and a lack of knowledge of emergency management commitments and whether they were being met.

I have to ask: Who is responsible for this debacle? Who's responsible for all these, frankly, just unacceptable, horrible items listed in this report?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

Mr. Chair, I would say that the response from the government indicates that the government fully accepts responsibility to change a colonial system and to invest more aggressively both in the space of preparedness and in renewing emergency management approaches.

What has not worked well has been top-down—quite frankly—bilateral approaches whereby the federal government has—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I'm going to interrupt you. I appreciate that, but some of these items are from nine years ago and haven't been done. It's fine to say, “Well, we're going to do this,” but for nine years it hasn't been done. Who's going to be held accountable? Who's going to be held accountable on the go-forward basis to achieve the recommendations noted by the Auditor General? No one's been held accountable, and no one's getting the work done.

Please, I'd like a commitment from you. Who is going to be held accountable so that in one year, nine years, we're not faced with the same report?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

Well, certainly, I think we should all be held accountable, as members of Parliament, to, hopefully, support the upcoming budget. We have a very aggressive—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Minister, that's not the question.

Who's going to be held accountable for this debacle? Who's going to be held accountable to ensure that the recommendations in the Auditor General's report are going to be followed out and completed, so that we're not sitting here in nine years again, looking back and having an Auditor General again saying, “Well, nothing's been done”?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

Again, Mr. Chair, I think it is all of us who are accountable. All of us are accountable to indigenous peoples to get reconciliation right.

I will point out that the Auditor General talked about reports during a time of Conservative government leadership when nothing was done. This government is taking action and making historic investments in first nations communities that will result in—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Minister, you're very—

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

I have a point of order.

11:10 a.m.

A voice

It's not a point of order.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Is it a point of order, Ms. Shanahan?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Yes.

Could the witness be allowed to finish her answer? That's three interruptions that we've had so far. I know you're being judicious with the time.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Yes, but as you know, we're on the clock here. I'm going to let members be a little aggressive with their time in seeking answers. Having said that, I would urge members to be respectful of all witnesses.

It's back to you, Mr. McCauley.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Okay. I think it's very clear that the people sitting at the front of this table are the ones who are going to be accountable for the specific items mentioned in this report.

What is the dollar total needed to fully fund the 112 eligible projects that are noted in this report, please?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

I will turn to my officials in a moment, but I think we're at 58 projects now—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

No. What are the total dollars required?

11:10 a.m.

Valerie Gideon Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services

I believe we have $82 million for the outstanding projects that are still on the list that we're working to complete.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

That's $82 million. How much is in the main estimates that have just been tabled to address these issues?

11:10 a.m.

Rory O'Connor Director General, Regional Infrastructure Delivery Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services

There are a number of sources of funds for the structural mitigation projects. There's $12 million dedicated to the structural mitigation—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

How much is dedicated in the main estimates for these projects?

11:10 a.m.

Director General, Regional Infrastructure Delivery Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services

Rory O'Connor

Overall, there's funding of over $1 billion for other community infrastructure projects—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I've asked a very simple question. There are identified projects for infrastructure. The main estimates just came out.

How much in the main estimates is set aside to address these 58 projects that are now outstanding?

11:10 a.m.

Director General, Regional Infrastructure Delivery Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services

Rory O'Connor

If I could just add to that, we're working with communities on prioritization. Part of that is to see what projects are ready to be moved on, which are still priorities for the community, and what those will actually cost, because, as you know, there have been escalations—