Public Accounts Committee on March 20th, 2023

[Rory O'Connor]

Could I respond to that?

The major projects in particular are complex. They are often multi-year projects. Sometimes there are delays in projects, for example, related to COVID, which puts back timelines due to labour and materials. As such, sometimes we need to reprofile funds into future years in order to be able to complete those projects as originally planned.

[Joanne Wilkinson]

I would also note that the $12 million is specific for structural mitigation projects. Prevention funding under the emergency management assistance program can provide additional funding for things like sandbagging, the project I mentioned earlier with Peguis.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Your time is up, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Madam Minister. Thank you so much for being here.

I think it's deplorable, unfortunately, that we have to be in this circumstance, first and foremost. For over a decade, it's been mentioned, this audit was nearing. That is the most troublesome aspect of this—the time we wait, the time indigenous people are waiting, and the amount of risk that these indigenous communities are suffering because of that time lost and the waiting that is occurring.

We should be ashamed of ourselves. That is, the government should be ashamed. These are people's lives. They are real people, beyond politics, beyond partisanship. I'm upset to see that this has become a partisan issue in many ways. I had hoped to see that Canadians have grown, and that the governments they elect have grown, but the fact remains that this is still an emerging emergency.

Canada is one of the wealthiest countries in the world. In the entire globe, Canada is one of the wealthiest places. You wouldn't know it, looking at first nations reserves in Canada. You would not know it. With promise after promise after promise, Madam Minister, this government continues to fail indigenous people. It's not just your government; I will take that point. Governments right across this country have failed indigenous people and continue to do that. The breach of these promises has a cost to it.

There's a reason I'm upset today. If this was the first time Canada had broken a promise, maybe indigenous people might give you a pass. This is over 150 years of broken promise after broken promise.

Indigenous people right now...just last Monday, Chief Jordna Hill declared a state of emergency in the Shamattawa First Nation in northern Manitoba. He explained at a press conference in response to several suicides in recent weeks, as well as a fire that destroyed the homes of eight families at a time when the community was down on fire equipment, that it was this government's fault.

They didn't have fire equipment, Madam Minister, because this government failed to adequately prepare and ensure that indigenous people had fire equipment.

Fire is not a matter of if; it's a matter of when. That's why there are insurance companies, but even insurers won't help these communities, so if the insurers won't and the government won't, who is going to help them? This needs to be fixed. I'm going to get to the point of what I recommend is a fix, and as a matter of fact it's your own department's recommendation.

Beyond that, Grand Chief Garrison Settee of the MKO, a political advocacy organization I'm certain you're familiar with, which represents 26 first nations in Manitoba, said what's unfolding is a product of “years of neglect”. This is someone you're supposed to be in a relationship with. You're supposed to ensure that these things aren't the case.

There were years of neglect, Madam Minister—not my words, but the words of first nations—by governments that are failing to financially support remote communities such as Shamattawa.

The question I have is, when will the government take this seriously? When will any government take this seriously? It is way too long this has been going on. Indigenous communities can't continue to do this by themselves. It's explicitly clear the federal government.... You talk about partnerships, but the federal government is responsible. Section 91(24) of the Constitution Act of this country says the federal government has responsibility for Indians and land reserves for Indians. Those lands are flooding; those lands are on fire, and those lands require the assistance of indigenous people to actually mitigate that, but they need this government to step up.

I want to return now to the previous meeting, on November 25, 2022, in regard to this audit. The deputy minister of indigenous services, Ms. Wilson, said:

I would like your support to ensure more resources to first nations for emergency management going forward. If parliamentarians were to approve increased resources to the department, we would be happy to administer them.

That's not all she said, though. After her ADM acknowledged that there was at least $358 million in need, but just $12 million in dedicated annual funding to the program just mentioned by Ms. Wilkinson, she was asked, Madam Minister, directly whether she was making the request for finances to achieve this, and she responded with “yes”. She confirmed that she spoke to you about this request, that she had asked you for the $358 million, a small amount of money, to go into the direct fund for first nations mitigation, into the first nation infrastructure fund, which currently sits at $12 million, nothing.

Twelve million dollars is nothing in an emergency. When I worked in emergency management in northern Alberta, $3 million was the cost of the houses we lost in just one community. For the entire first nation infrastructure fund, $12 million is an embarrassment. This is why we have these issues.

You can talk about the many pots of funding you allocate and you merge together. The reality is that the fund is way oversubscribed. You know it, Madam Minister, and your deputy ministers know it. It's oversubscribed. The emergencies are real.

My direct question is this: Will you take the advice of your deputy minister and, at the very least, increase the first nation infrastructure fund, which sits at $12 million, to $358 million, something she actually could—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Desjarlais, could you allow a response? I'd like to hear the answer, and I think you would too.

Go ahead, Minister.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

How many minutes do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have 40 seconds.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I have 40 seconds. Okay.

First of all, I will never stop advocating for equity for indigenous peoples. I fully appreciate the pain and rage that you're expressing, and I feel it every time I am in a community.

The way I do my work is as an ally to first nations and indigenous peoples, and I work closely with the department to advocate for the resources that—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Is it yes or no?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm getting to that, Mr. Chair.

I work closely with the department to advocate for the resources we need.

I will also say this. I wouldn't want confusion to arise around the $12 million that you're talking about, which is specifically for structural mitigation, and the money that we have set aside and are investing in infrastructure as a whole. They are different things.

When we're talking about house fires, those are not included in the structural mitigation money. There is a separate pot of money.

When we're talking about water, for example, or other civil engineering infrastructure projects, such as community centres or health centres, there is separate infrastructure spending for those, so the Government of Canada spends far more than $12 million on infrastructure in first nations. In fact, we have spent unprecedented amounts, as you know; however, we still have a huge gap.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

We turn now to our next round, starting with Mr. Genuis.

You have the floor for five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, a couple of things are striking to me about the conversation so far. One, hearing you talk, it sounds as though the government that has, in fact, been in place for eight years hasn't, in fact, been in place, because you are continually talking about all of us sharing some responsibility and how we're all accountable for this, as members of Parliament.

Your government has been in place for eight years. We had an audit in 2013 that identified many of these same problems. Your government has had eight years to try to address or fix those problems, and you're coming to us saying that you're an ally, that you're angry too and that you're supportive.

These are problems that you as minister are responsible for. You should be taking action on them, and action should have been taken long ago.

The other thing that's striking to me in this discussion is that we have a government now that always wants to measure its success by the amount of money it's spending. The Auditor General has found that if we were spending money proactively on emergency preparedness, we would actually be saving money on emergency response, and in fact, saving money overall. That is, spending money quite literally on preventing fires instead of putting out fires would save us money and reduce the negative impacts on communities. This notion underlines the problem that it's not just about money spent; it's also about management and about being proactive. Those are my comments.

Minister, I want to ask you specifically about page 14 of the audit. The Auditor General highlights the absence of service agreements in a number of cases. Clearly, given the interaction of federal and provincial responsibility when it comes to responding to these kinds of issues on indigenous communities, the federal government has a responsibility, but it will obviously likely need to benefit from co-operation with provinces.

In fact, in a number of provinces there are no service agreements in place to deal with emergency management in general or with wildfires. In one case the agreement was signed over 30 years ago and has not been updated. In four of six wildfire agreements, not all first nations communities in the relevant provinces are included.

Minister, you've said that you accept the findings of the Auditor General's report. Is your department proactively working to update and negotiate agreements, and could you give us an update on when we can expect to have agreements covering every province and territory and agreements that include all first nations communities?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

First of all, the short answer to your last question is yes. In fact we're working on the co-development and multilateral agreements.

In direct contrast to the previous member's statement, although of course the federal government has some very distinct responsibilities in whatever province you live in, whether you're indigenous or not, there are certain responsibilities in jurisdictions that provinces and territories have and in fact are better equipped to provide, and there are funding agreements with provinces and territories to provide those services.

For example, we have a—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I want to ask about the negotiations and timelines.

You can continue answering, but can I direct your answer? I'd like to know, what is the status of those negotiations, and when we can expect to have agreements covering all jurisdictions and communities, please?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I can certainly go through all 13 provinces and territories, and where we're at. Is that what you'd like?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

When can we expect that the entire process will be completed?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

As you know, when you're working on a multilateral agreement, you don't actually control the timeline completely. Of course, we would need the provinces and territories to work collaboratively with us. Those trilateral conversations with first nations people, provinces, territories and the federal government happen in a collaborative way.

We have a memorandum of understanding on a trilateral approach with British Columbia, and we're thrilled. In fact, it worked very well with the Province of B.C. There was some great work happening with Alberta, as well. Manitoba is in progress. There are other provinces and territories that are not at the same stage.

Maybe I could turn to Joanne. Would you like to speak about—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, just because of time constraints, I see I have about 30 seconds left. Can I ask you to provide a detailed response, updating the committee in writing on the status and expected timelines in the case of all those negotiations? Can you provide that to the committee as a follow-up?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

We certainly can. It may be in your package, though, in the plan.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

Minister, give a quick response to this. It's been eight years. You seem to be trying to disperse responsibility for this. Do you take any personal responsibility for the contents of this audit?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I take personal responsibility for my work as a member of Parliament and a cabinet minister in a government that has put reconciliation at the core.

I would ask, do you take any personal responsibility? The $2.6 million proposed—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

For the failure of—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Our time is up.

As you know, I allow witnesses to continue once the time is up. Once you interrupt, I end the time. I don't like the talking over one another.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Minister and officials, for being here today.

Minister, the report talks about the imperative of a culturally appropriate response when it comes to emergency management.

Could you talk about how the government has sought to ensure that principle in its approach?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'll give some high-level thoughts and then turn to the officials.

One of the big differences between this Liberal government and the previous one is that this Liberal government, when we were elected, put reconciliation at the core. In order to do that, we had to understand how to be a good partner, rather than how to be a controlling partner, quite frankly.

Sometimes, when you have all the money and resources, it's easy to slip into being the controlling partner. The best outcomes are coming from the work that we're doing collaboratively with first nations. Leaning into a cultural change within the department and the government as a whole puts indigenous self-determination at its core.

It's not just in emergency management. We have a new child welfare law, for example. We're in consultations now on self-determined health legislation. We're working on principles of co-development with first nation peoples, so that we don't unintentionally impose legislation on people that isn't going to fit.

This is really a cultural shift within the federal government. It's difficult. As our colleague, Mr. Desjarlais, mentioned, it is a colonial country with a history of determining for indigenous people what they will live through and endure, rather than asking indigenous people how best to support their own self-determination and healing.

It is a process, but it is one that I'm profoundly thrilled to be part of.