Public Accounts Committee on March 20th, 2023

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the remaining witnesses for being present here today.

I've largely exhausted many of the questions I feel I had. In the absence, of course, of what I feel are satisfactory answers and a continuation of those important questions, I'll switch gears to speak more directly to the implementation of these policies.

One of them is first recognizing that the status quo is not working. Do you agree?

Maybe we could have all three members agree that the status quo isn't working, because I feel like we have to start from the basics here, given the minister's lack of answers. Maybe we could start with the deputy minister and go to both assistant deputy ministers.

Just quickly, do you think the status quo is working, and is it to the benefit of indigenous people?

[Gina Wilson]

The status quo is never a comfortable place for me. Certainly, it is not working, so I would say that the principle of continuous improvement in every aspect of what we do is absolutely essential. Definitely, here in the emergency management world, hot washes, lessons learned and continuing to improve are the way we see things.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Ms. Wilkinson.

[Joanne Wilkinson]

Absolutely. That is the frame, and as you heard earlier we're continuing to make improvements in the areas that were identified, not only by the Auditor General but also by first nations leadership when we are in active response and recovery mode and looking to prevention and mitigation. We look to integrate those lessons at every step.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

You can also recognize, though, that there is a serious time loss when utilizing the.... The minister mentioned that you don't control the timelines if you're working with partners, in particular the province.

Why do you feel it's important to work with the province, knowing that you have total jurisdiction? The federal government has sole jurisdiction, as per the courts. In particular, the Daniels v. Canada Supreme Court decision of 2016 speaks directly to the government's unwillingness to implement or take full charge of jurisdiction it's awarded under the Constitution.

Why can't you act now?

[Gina Wilson]

There are capacities and capabilities the provinces and territories have that are not necessarily within first nations or within the federal government.

Provinces and territories, for instance, have helicopters. We don't have helicopters. There are different types of equipment required for different hazards. There's equipment, for instance, that we don't have: heavy machinery, for instance, that is required—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Knowing these things, why not procure some of these?

[Gina Wilson]

Why not procure them? Well, why not work with the province and territory, who have all of these—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

It's your jurisdiction, though. Why not do it? You can get a guaranteed response.

If you got a helicopter today, or if you got a fire truck today, the disaster that happened in Manitoba wouldn't have happened.

[Gina Wilson]

Fire trucks are different from heavy machinery. They are different from helicopters—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Okay. Why not buy a fire truck, then?

[Gina Wilson]

We have bought a fire truck.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Then why did this community burn down? Why did we lose eight houses?

[A voice]

I can speak to that—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

No, I'd prefer the deputy minister do so. It's important that the deputy minister answer.

[Gina Wilson]

I feel I can give an overarching reply, but I also feel, Mr. Chair, that I can refer to others for more information.

When it comes to fire equipment, definitely, the department does provide resources for that. There are a lot of complex factors in why a fire happens and why a fire truck is not immediately available in the community.

Valerie, do you know the details?

[Valerie Gideon]

I would just say that the fire truck in Shamattawa was under repair.

In Winnipeg, they are funded $150,000 for a fire truck, and $70,000 in terms of the O&M.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Do you know how much a fire truck costs?

[Valerie Gideon]

I don't know myself how much a fire truck costs in that particular community, because it would also involve shipping and so forth.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

It's definitely more than even the generous amount of $300,000. It's more than that.

Beyond that aspect, and beyond the draft report, what plans do you have to make, rather than incremental change—which is unsatisfactory to indigenous people...? Is it the policy from cabinet that is restricting you from making certain that these problems never happen again? Why do these problems keep happening?

[Gina Wilson]

It is not the policy of cabinet to not allow changes to happen.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Well, then whose fault is it that this happened?

[Gina Wilson]

Whose fault is it? Do you want me to answer that? I mean, you're talking about the full report—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Yes. Your government is telling us—

[Gina Wilson]

My government....