Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 24th, 2023

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Just the ballpark date is fine.

[Arianne Reza]

The budget element is still between $4.5 billion and $5 billion.

Rob can give us the status of—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No, if it hasn't changed....

It's good news that there haven't been the surprises that we found perhaps in West Block. I understand that part of the issue was that we went in not knowing what was behind the walls, so it hasn't turned out to be as bad as we thought.

If it hasn't turned out to be anywhere as bad as we thought, I'm just wondering why we are still at a 2032 move-in and why we are still budgeting the same amount.

[Robert Wright]

I would maybe shift that just a little to say that it's turned out to be as we thought.

It's the advance investigation—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Let me interrupt.

[Robert Wright]

No, this is important.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Sorry, Mr. Wright, but let me interrupt.

As I recall, we went in and we didn't know what was behind the walls. We didn't have the original plans; they went missing. It's not as we thought, really, because we didn't know what was there. So how can—

[Robert Wright]

There are a couple of things.

This investigation program started before Centre Block was emptied. With the great collaboration of Parliament, we started going in with the invasive testing. Ms. Garrett's team did a lot of invasive testing even before Centre Block was emptied. That was a lesson learned from West Block. We did not do that on West Block, but we did it on Centre Block.

The second thing that we did before setting a baseline schedule and budget was an extremely exhaustive investigation and assessment program. That informed this baseline schedule and budget, so—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

So the $4.5-billion estimate was done after that.

[Robert Wright]

Exactly. It was in June 2021.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay, that's fine. Thanks very much.

Mr. Hayes, I want to pop over to you.

Welcome back. We haven't seen you for a while.

You talked about some of the delays around the security environment. Could you expand a bit on that? Are you talking about security as in the members' entrance, how people are coming and going, or are you talking about security as in perhaps addressing what happened to the DND building in Kanata, where the building was rife with PRC Beijing bugs?

[Andrew Hayes]

Thanks. It's good to be back. I was trying to keep a low profile.

We're talking about just the user requirements. You can see in the semi-annual report the department produced—I think it was a week or so ago—that there are still some references to security-related matters, including some of the lessons learned from the convoy demonstrations. Our point is that, as the department is waiting for decisions, it can't move on with some of the steps that it needs to take.

I can't say that we were specifically looking at some of the examples that you noted.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Who would be, then? There are a lot of people coming and going. I realize that they have security clearance, but we see a lot of workers coming and going in the buildings. Who is looking at that to ensure we're not taking back a building that has security issues planted in the walls? Again, with the DND building, I think it was almost a billion dollars to fix.

[Arianne Reza]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

As my colleague noted, the semi-annual report that was tabled outlines physical screening of members, of people accessing the House of Commons, the Senate, the different screening processes—the arrival piece. It has the physical security as well as some other elements.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Right. Mr. Hayes addressed the security of members and that, but it's the actual security of the building, the IT systems. Again, it's to avoid what happened at the DND building in Kanata. I realize that a bunch was done beforehand, but do we have a process in place to address that?

I see that Mr. Wright is nodding. Maybe he can address that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We need just a brief response, please, Mr. Wright.

[Robert Wright]

Yes. I'll ask Ms. Garrett to add a couple of additional details.

There is a very strong framework around security clearances for all workers who come on to the site. That's very robustly managed. There's a very clear system for how people get on site. We feel quite confident in that system.

On the IT systems that you indicated, which are very important, the House of Commons is the technical authority for Parliament—for all of Parliament—on the IT systems. It's actually the House of Commons that takes on that responsibility. For the portion around the Prime Minister's Office, the RCMP has protocols in place for testing and making sure that everything is.... There's quite a strong process around that, in which the House very much takes a leadership role.

Jennifer, I'll go over to you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to have to cut you off, but I'm sure Mr. McCauley will come back to you when his turn is up again.

I apologize. I have some time constraints here.

Ms. Bradford, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming in today.

This is a fascinating project on probably the most well-known building in Canada. Canadians are justifiably very proud of it, so there's a lot of interest.

I'd like to share that I have actually had two tours. As members of Parliament, we're allowed to go on Fridays and have a personal tour, which I did several months ago. At that time, many of the artifacts were still in wooden bins. They were all labelled, catalogued and stored. Think of that, if people can imagine it. Great care is being taken. A few months later, the public accounts committee got to go, and I saw it again. I could see progress. The bins were all moved away, so I assumed everything was in storage.

Given that there is such great interest, I'm sure that all of our visitors who come to Parliament and see all the construction, the massive hole and everything, are dying to know what's going on inside.

The AG recommended that PSPC provide more timely information to all Canadians about the project. Beyond publishing the long-term vision and plan—and I know there are great updates on the website—can you tell us what measures are being taken to make sure that Canadians have access to updates about what's happening with the project?

[Arianne Reza]

Thank you very much.

I think over and above what we're doing in terms of publishing it, we're trying to make it more accessible through different social media channels and different videos that are available, interactive school programs—I believe some of the school programs are still going on, talking about the restoration—and having touchpoints across the country to make it more accessible.

For more details, I'll go over to Mr. Wright.

[Robert Wright]

Thanks very much for the question.

This is very important, as the deputy indicated. We do a number of things, and there's always more that can be done. This is very important.

There is an annual media tour. The media come in and get to see the progress, as you have, and ask any questions they want. That provides an opportunity for all Canadians to keep track.

We've also been working with Parliament. CPAC is starting to do a documentary on the project, at our encouragement, working with Parliament. I think the first installment is coming out before Christmas, or some time around then. CPAC plans on covering the project right until its completion. That will provide another forum for parliamentarians and Canadians to be able to keep track of the project.

You mentioned the annual report. There's a quarterly report, as well, on the Centre Block project. There are a number of videos.

As Ms. Garrett just mentioned, we also work with the City of Ottawa on the Doors Open program. I think for the past three years, we've participated in the Doors Open program. Several thousand people come each year for that. It's very difficult to take that many people through the project site, but I think this past year, they got to get up and see the actual excavation site for the new Parliament welcome centre.

We have also used the Heritage Canada information centre to put in displays and interactive.... We've had virtual reality for people who come to these spaces. We're always trying to have the appropriate outreach for Canadians.

The last thing I'll mention is that a couple of years ago, we also did some public opinion research to hear from Canadians on what would be important to them, to make sure that the design and plans responded to that.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you. It is the people's House, so I'm glad you're including the public.

This project has encountered a couple of major unexpected events that happened prior to when it first started. Namely, there was COVID, which was then followed by the “freedom convoy”.

To what extent did the COVID-19 pandemic affect workflow, supplier relations and overall project progress?

Also, what was the impact of the convoy occupation, which shut down downtown Ottawa for several weeks? What impact did that have? Were workers able to get on site during that time?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Once again, please give a brief reply.

[Arianne Reza]

All right.

Thank you very much for the question.

At a high level, there were some impacts from COVID. The site was closed and the work was stopped. We've tried to accelerate to keep up with getting back on track to make up that lost time.

I would also note, in terms of the convoy, that as a result, colleagues and the then minister of public works, Minister Tassi, did go to PROC, the procedure committee. This issue was studied in terms of looking at Wellington Street to see whether or not it should be part of the precinct. As parliamentarians may or may not know, 40% of parliamentarians are already working on the other side of Wellington Street. That number of parliamentarians will increase. Looking at that precinct footprint is one of the key consequences.

I'll pause here to see whether Rob has anything on the labour disruption—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm afraid we'll have to come back to that, if there's interest.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have two and a half minutes.